Off Topic Messages

Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:55 pm

Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:And I'm glad you are no longer defending stores like the one that openly sold Britney and 50 Cent knock-offs. And many "mainstream" college kids (and sites like rockrap.com continually pose as if all burning and downloading is just "sharing." Please.

"No longer defending"? :roll: I meant what I said on that thread you reference, nothing I just posted here changes that and vice versa.

Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:One person's sampling is another person's thievery but I guess as long as it's paid for, as James Brown insisted. I 'm less sure that samplers have anything to do with our cultural progress. (A turntable ain't an instrument.

While I listed three audio examples, it's shortsighted to narrow the definition. Warhol's Elvis is also a transformative work - he created another piece of art incorporating an existing work (the Flaming Star shot). Some of Elvis's songs are also transformative works, including Love Me Tender.

Eileen wrote:I believe if I buy a piece of music or a book or video or game or software I should be able to resell it, listen to it, read it, watch it, play it, use it as I wish in those ways historically and commonly considered personal use and consistent with the intent expressed in Article I of the Constitution.

Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:I'm less attached to that idea, in the short term, anyway

Personally, I like the fact that I don't have to buy DVDs from Sony in order to make use of my Sony DVD player. I like the fact that Nissan can't define the list of streets on which I can drive my car. I like the fact that I don't have to buy a Technics unit to play EMI cds and a Denon unit to play BMG cds. I like the fact that all brands of cell phones can call all other brands of cell phones. I was glad I could borrow the neighbor's truck when I needed to haul an appliance, and sell cds I don't like at my sister's garage sale. I guess I'm "more attached" to that idea.

Eileen

Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:50 pm

Eileen wrote:
"No longer defending"? :roll: I meant what I said on that thread you reference, nothing I just posted here changes that and vice versa.


You played the violin for that shopowner and you know it. :smt056


While I listed three audio examples, it's shortsighted to narrow the definition. Warhol's Elvis is also a transformative work - he created another piece of art incorporating an existing work (the Flaming Star shot). Some of Elvis's songs are also transformative works, including Love Me Tender.


True enough. And I like Warhol and even some sampling done in Hip hop. :shock: I did my own remix of Hendrix' Star Spangled Banner
and the evening news during the first Gulf War (Peter, Dan, and Tom) that betrays some of what I've said here..

:oops:
Eileen wrote:I believe if I buy a piece of music or a book or video or game or software I should be able to resell it, listen to it, read it, watch it, play it, use it as I wish in those ways historically and commonly considered personal use and consistent with the intent expressed in Article I of the Constitution.

Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:I'm less attached to that idea, in the short term, anyway

Eileen wrote:
Personally, I like the fact that I don't have to buy DVDs from Sony in order to make use of my Sony DVD player. I like the fact that Nissan can't define the list of streets on which I can drive my car.

(That's a stretch, don't you think? :shock: )

Eileen wrote:
I like the fact that I don't have to buy a Technics unit to play EMI cds and a Denon unit to play BMG cds. I like the fact that all brands of cell phones can call all other brands of cell phones. I was glad I could borrow the neighbor's truck when I needed to haul an appliance, and sell cds I don't like at my sister's garage sale. I guess I'm "more attached" to that idea.


Life is about limits too. "You can't always get what you want..." :smt034 Nor does it always "make sense."

Seriously, what really is the problem here? What is the big bad
RIAA doing to mess you up? Seriously, Ive admitted I'm none
to restricted, as I plan on buying "records" for the time to come, but for you...?

Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:47 am

Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:Seriously, what really is the problem here?

I tried once more to outline the issues as I see them - what they are and why I think they are important. Then I let the draft sit overnight, coming back today for a final pass. And decided to toss them out.

If the 20 or so topical posts I've written on FECC already have resulted only in your mischaracterization of my position as "no longer defending" vs. "defending" Britney and 50 Cent pirating, and asking what "really" is my problem, then even an additional 20 topical posts would be pointless.

"What really is the problem here" is that you simply do not accept my comments as serious and sincere. You think you know what I "really mean" so I won't waste any more time posting about the issues.

Number of songs I've ever downloaded from free music/file sharing services: 2
Number of songs I've ever uploaded to free music/file sharing services: 0
Number of cdrs I've ever sold: 0
Number of cdrs I've ever traded: 0
Number of cdrs I've ever given away: 3
Number of cdrs I've ever purchased: 15 audio/video boots

Eileen

Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:51 am

Jeez, calm down, Eileen. I just wanted to know from 'where you sit."
Obviously, usually people are reacting to where there "oxe is being
gored." You 're coming at it more on a principled matter, so I respect it.

I freely admit I don't "get" the whole attitude and stance and concede
I may be old at the ripe age of my mid-30s.

I'm exploring the idea and also having fun with it. I'm sorry if my
jabs / attempts at humor don't move you. No offense meant. I'm
pissed that the record store is dying and don't like theft being
tossed off as "principle." That's shorthand but I'm willing to be convinced.

Here's another interesting article.

To me, it's more snotty college kids posing as friends of the "poor."

Anti-Piracy Message Stumbles at CollegesBy Claire Hoffman,
LA Times Staff Writer 11/17/05

Dan Glickman, the movie industry's top lobbyist, was doing his best. Determined to convince a group of UCLA students how wrong it is to copy a movie off the Internet, he was searching for a way to drive his point home.

First, the chairman of the Motion Picture Assn. of America told the 60 or so students gathered in the Ackerman Grand Ballroom about "the power of movies to change people's lives." To shore up his credentials, he mentioned that his son, Jonathan, is a movie producer. (He worked on "Rush Hour" and "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.") For good measure, he mentioned his son again


Then Glickman came up with this: Illegal downloading, he said, is like stealing another person's clothes.

Finally, the former U.S. Agriculture secretary and longtime senator from Kansas bid farewell, and the lights went down on "March of the Penguins" — the much-heralded documentary and the reason most of the students had come in the first place. Immediately, it was clear that they hadn't taken Glickman's anti-piracy message seriously.

"Arrrrrrr!" shouted a group of students in the front row, prompting a chorus of pirate-like catcalls in the vein of Johnny Depp.

Chalk it up to irreverent youth. But the outbreak of pirate jokes Wednesday night underscored the challenge that Glickman faced as he toured college campuses lecturing on the need to protect movies from Internet thieves. UCLA was his fifth stop and his first in California.

Although downloading pirated films from the Internet is not nearly as rampant on college campuses as online copying of music, studios are alarmed that the numbers are growing. Research shows that young males are at the vanguard in downloading technology, and that pirating of movies tends to take place overwhelmingly on computers in college dorms.

That's why Glickman has taken his message on the road. The college tour is a part of the MPAA's larger campaign to persuade the public to respect the intellectual property rights of movie studios. To that end, Glickman's aim seemed to be to remind people that they love movies.

As part of a question-and-answer session, Glickman said more than once that he had just seen the new "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire," which opens today. Then he asked students to name their favorite movies. "Garden State" got several mentions, as did "Star Wars."

One student wanted to know how the trade association came up with movie ratings. Several asked about easy and legal ways to download movies.

"Are there perhaps some benefits to piracy because more people now have access to the movies?" asked Mike Chen, a 28-year-old medical student.

"The ends do not justify the means," Glickman responded.

Glickman isn't the first anti-piracy advocate to get a tepid response at UCLA. In April, U.S. Atty. Gen. Alberto R. Gonzales addressed a group of high school students during a daylong seminar at the campus, urging them to just say no to online piracy.

But he, too, met with skepticism. Several of the students said the government should be focusing on eliminating poverty and improving education instead of jailing kids who download movies, music and software. One young man wore a patch over one eye, pirate-style.

Colleges and universities across the country are struggling to change students' attitudes about illegal downloading. At UCLA, for example, if a student is caught illegally downloading a movie or a song on campus, their access to the Web is severely limited. They must remove any offending material from their computer and make an online confession, promising never to do it again.

Other campuses such as Tufts University have subsidized computer software that allows students to download music, movies and television shows legally. But they are having trouble keeping up with demand.

Brett Goldberg's company, Cdigix Inc., offers one such downloading service to 33 college campuses, serving about 450,000 students. He said everyone was struggling to keep up with young people's thirst for the new.

"They are getting stuff from peer-to-peer that is still in theaters or sometimes not even in theaters. We have to continue to beef up the offerings," said Goldberg, whose company is racing to add new TV shows and films.

Eric Garland, chief executive of BigChampagne, a Los Angeles company that monitors online media, agreed.

"Hollywood has to be responsible for making it easier to access this stuff legitimately than to steal it," he said, adding that young consumers "may be the savviest and most demanding consumer base that any of us have tried to sell to. They are not the anarchists that we often make them out to be."

After Glickman left UCLA on Wednesday night, Chen, the medical student, said he had come mostly to see the penguin movie. He did not find the forum very satisfying.

"I think he seemed like he had a motive for being here and he had to give certain answers," Chen said of the MPAA chief. Glickman's agenda "doesn't benefit the public, just the rich."




http://www.rockrap.com

Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:09 am

Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:Jeez, calm down, Eileen. I just wanted to know from 'where you sit."
Obviously, usually people are reacting to where there "oxe is being
gored." You 're coming at it more on a principled matter, so I respect it.

I haven't read the rest of your post yet, will do so in a moment. FYI, I'm not angry but.... irked and (thesaurus) resolute. I'll have to find an icon for that.

Eileen

Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:45 pm

This area isn't one I've much touched on or define as "an issue", however your post did spur some thoughts on how we got here (many file sharing techniques and the UCLA event).....

>>To me, it's more snotty college kids posing as friends of the "poor."

Let me try playing the violin for them. Image

There is some of that (snotty posing) in every crowd. Mostly though IMO it's characteristic of kids (even college-age) to be both stubbornly self-absorbed and relentlessly idealistic. After all, they know everything and you ARE just old*. ;)

It's serendipity really. The entertainment industries (with the exception of theater) had long ago deliberately narrowed the focus of their business to a near-singular laser pinpoint on kids. You know it's true. And suddenly, at the fingertips of those same kids, appears an accessible technology that they can manipulate to feed their own passions - those passions that had been incessantly stoked and hyped and exploited by... the entertainment industries! It's just... serendipity.

So now adults in suits - "the man" - come around and say HOLD UP! We want you to be obsessive and fanatical and fret endlessly about what your friends have and want to the point of despair whatever you imagine that is, want what everyone has and what none of them have and imagine that everyone has IT but you and grab on to new trends at the drop of a hat - we want that, we STILL want that! But only when WE decide. Yes, we've told you all along that it's your culture but it's NOT, okay? It's OURS - WE control it. That's the way it's always been, that's the way it will always be, that's the way it has to stay. It's like.... it IS yours, but just when and where and how we decide - we'll give you the okay, okay?

The genie is out of the bottle, the emperor is nude, etc. etc.

Adding insult to injury, the adults in suits are best friends with suited adults, who happen to be shoveling pallets of blank media and media burners and mp3 and wma and aac players with snazzy color screens and carrying loops and eighty styles of earphones into every neighborhood where the asphalt can accept a truck. The emperor is a naked hypocrite, that's what the emperor is. Kids on hypocrites? HA! - they eat'em fer lunch.

.......

Speeding is often dangerous (or, more dangerous than not speeding). And it's against the law. And I don't know anyone under 60 or maybe 70 who would be pleased with automatic detection and ticketing systems installed on every road, though we can do it now. But we don't want our tax money spent this way (they could improve education!!), we don't want to be constantly monitored (targeted) even for our own good, we don't want to pay all those tickets, we don't want to be so damn careful all the time, we have ten thousand reasons WE might NEED to speed (just for a minute!), and we don't care THAT much about it being against the law. We're mostly pretty self-absorbed about it, and we know too that it's a question of priorities. And who can make the case where file sharing is more damaging to society than speeding? Even "feeding their families" loses it's punch when compared to dead bodies; there ARE other jobs besides entertainment.

.......

Your post also spurred thoughts about theft and the industry approach.... maybe for tomorrow.

Eileen

*Me too.

Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:32 pm

Nicely said, Eileen. (And where did you find that violin-playing
emoticon?! :lol: ).

After some introspection, I can see that I'm bothered that kids
of today are divorced from the record/ CD-collecting impulse. Real covers,
real items you can hold in your hand, etc. (And I use "kids" slightly
ironically because this trend is making me old before my time
as I'm in my 30s... :oops: ) So that's part of what's driving my
sarcasm. A lot of the work I've done in building a presentable and
well-stocked collection is in some ways now more arcane. I challenge
the notion that the kid bopping to an I-Pod (an audiable enough
that I can hear it on the subway) is truly as passionate
about music as older breathren who actually collect records....
Something about the absence of the item itself seems lost
forever. I suppose you can look up the "cover" on the internet
and read a bio or something, but is it as "magical"?
(Nevermind some of the audiophile concerns..)

A long time fellow music fan (and long-time chum) who I shared
a lot of music with over the years recently went on the i-Pod
bandwagon and I actually felt betrayed and a bit abondoned. Sure,
he's keeping a lot of his CDs as he thinks of them as "hard copies"
but he's also not buying much at all anymore and already
is taken up with the charms of the little bugger...

I also have taken issue with much of today's music as mentioned
on other threads, so, yes, I'm biased and I want to acknowledge that.

And at heart I am a music fan - not a collector but a music fan.

So if I'm consistant, the technology shouldn't matter. If the medium
changes but younger people still are devoted to music , then I should
be happy.

I also have this sense that downloading is a very individualistic
pursuit done in the privacy of one's (dorm) room, rather than
going to a good record store with knowledgeable staff and different
discs being played and shared. There was a generiousity
that I've known in that realm that I don't necessarily see
in the mere "sharing" of music via MP-3s.

I'm willing to be converted by you and LiketheBike on this issue.

My liking of real covers and "real" releases probably makes
me more sympathetic to the record labels and RIAA then
they deserve. It's kind of like letting your heart go-aflutter
over the local chamber of commerce or your local realtor or
the telephone company. None of them have "the beat"
that the record industry has... :D

elvis cds possibly infected by sony

Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:55 am

The EFF has listed 5 Elvis cds as possibly containing the SunComm malware that can install itself on your computer EVEN if you DECLINE when asked.

The category All other CDs possibly affected by SunnComm Mediamax includes:

Elvis Presley Close Up Sampler
Elvis Presley Live In Texas 1972
Elvis Presley Unreleased Movie Gems
Elvis Presley Unreleased Stereo Masters From The `50s
Elvis Presley The Magic Of Nashville

Regarding my earlier post showing pictures of copy protection labeling - turns out that some cds are NOT so obviously labeled and some apparently aren't labeled at all.

http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/Sony-BMG/mediamaxlist.php
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/11/28/so ... _inst.html
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/12/02/ho ... l_if_.html
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/004228.php

Image

Eileen

Sun Dec 04, 2005 11:30 am

Eileen -

Are they genuine Elvis CD titles ?

They don't sound very familiar !

Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:06 pm

Colin, I had the same thought upon seeing the list so had run a few quick googles before I posted it. I did get plenty of hits - from skimming the summaries they appeared to be individual cds from one or more box sets, maybe from Close Up, Live in Las Vegas, TTF. I haven't gone back yet to pin it down.

Eileen

Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:52 pm

Eileen -

Yes, they are the four discs that make up the 'Close Up' box set plus the sampler.

No wonder they didn't sound familiar !

Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:04 pm

That's weird, I've put three of those into my PC to update my studio session compilations, and never got that message. Does the disc have to autoplay? I have mine turned off.

Greg, I know how you feel, I'm a 25 year old guy who's been collecting for about 10 years and has 900+ CDs, and the idea of completely moving away from something you can touch and collect is odd (isn't the package 1/3rd of the fun? Music being 2/3rds, of course) - unless digital/online purchase becomes the only/best quality option, I'll always buy the album (in whatever format an "album" is at that point). I love CDs, and also have an appreciation for the charm and warmth of LPs and 45s.

However, if you travel, if's not just a convenience, it's almost a necessity (if you want/need a quick reference or don't want to be away from your music for too long). I used to take a case of 250 CDs (with their cases) with me everywhere I went for trips longer than a week. Then, I started using CD binders and had 2 cases of 200 that were full... then I found MP3 CDs and with them holding 200 songs a piece I had a case of 60-100 MP3 CDs.... then my laptop, now my I-Pod.

Now, if you don't do much travelling, it's not as much of a necessity, but I estimated that I have about $4,000 worth of music and movies in that little thing... and if anything should happen to it, I have backups of those files in 2 places so I can get another I-Pod and re-fill it. I-Pods aren't cheap, but imagine replacing the whole collection instead... *I need a smiley for dropping dead from shock lol*

Anyway, I see good points on both sides, hopefully more will be done to protect the "fair use" rule, and then I'll be a legally happy guy. ;) lol

So, Greg, hope that helps - just one perspective. :)

Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:58 am

JamieAKelley wrote:That's weird, I've put three of those into my PC to update my studio session compilations, and never got that message. Does the disc have to autoplay? I have mine turned off.

Good! Most of the problems occur on Windows PCs with autorun/autoplay turned on. With autorun turned off, and with software like Exact Audio Copy, you can generally avoid problems. For now, at least.....

Eileen

Tue Dec 06, 2005 11:18 pm

Eileen wrote:
ColinB wrote:Surely making another copy of your own CD, for use in the car, say, is perfectly legal anyway !

No, not really. The allowable use is to make a backup copy to use if the original becomes nonplayable.

Need to make a correction here - where music is concerned, in the USA, fair use generally allows us to copy cds we own when the purpose is for our own personal use, as in your example. It's software cds where fair use is generally a backup only. My brain wasn't all the way on when I responded. ;) And of course this all only applies to cds without copy protection because bypassing copy protection violates the DMCA.

Eileen

Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:18 pm

Surprise surprise, Sony in the news once again..... In addition to nationwide reports of XCP infected cds still being sold (rather than pulled as promised), the Sony SunnComm copy protection has been found to create a security gap in consumer PCs. Two patches were released last week (the first being faulty), with more possibly on the way. There are about 6 million of these cds on the market.

SunnComm MediaMax Security Vulnerability FAQ
http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/Sony-BMG/mediamaxfaq.php

SunnComm's Affected CD List
http://www.sunncomm.com/support/faq/releases.asp

Sony fix for glitch has glitch
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... G4E5C1.DTL

CD Copy Protection: The Road to Spyware
http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/?p=939


Image

Eileen