Off Topic Messages

Will Libby Get Our President In Trouble?

Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:35 am

I like President Bush, but the latest news makes me worry people will think he's another Nixon:


October 29, 2005

It's the Cover-Up That Kills You
Copyright © 2005 Detroit Free Press Inc.


There's doing the wrong thing and then there's trying to hide it. The latter is usually the larger problem, as appears to be the case with I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, the vice presidential aide who resigned Friday after being charged with obstruction of justice, making false statements and perjury.


"What brought down the Nixon administration wasn't the (Watergate) burglary itself, but the cover-up of it. What caused Clinton's indictment wasn't that he had an affair with Monica Lewinsky but he lied about it," said Erwin Chemerinsky, a law professor at Duke University. "It's consistent with what we've seen in scandals for a long time."


It is to some extent human nature to duck, fudge and cover when it looks like you'll be caught for doing something you ought not have done. You'd think humans would have learned by now that this just makes it worse when the truth comes out, as it inevitably does -- and a lot worse when the ought-not at issue is the subject of a federal grand jury probe led by a prosecutor who is meticulous, thorough and relentless.

Libby, 55, is not yet convicted of anything and entitled to a presumption of innocence. One would also presume that someone who has made it all the way up to be chief of staff to the vice president of the United States would be smart enough to know how political investigations usually turn out.


The indictment resulted from a two-year probe into who told news reporters the name of a CIA agent. Disclosing the identity of an American spy is a federal offense, for obvious reasons. But Libby was not charged with doing that, only with lying about it, "under oath, repeatedly," said U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald.


The indictment is an embarrassment to the administration of President George W. Bush and will certainly prove a major distraction as the White House tries to push its agenda and protect Republican officeholders during the next year. It will also bring renewed attention to the flawed reasons the administration offered for a war in Iraq that has now cost 2,000 American and thousands more Iraqi lives. It will further expose the attack tactics employed by the White House against Bush critics. (The charges are unlikely to have any deleterious effect on the red-meat backers of Vice President Dick Cheney, who are probably pondering whether to launch a stealth campaign against Libby or Fitzgerald.)


The indictment begs the question of Libby before the grand jury: What was he thinking? Perhaps, like so many ill-fated others before, that he just might be able to get away with something.

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Audifon

Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:18 am

I don't think it's right for Libby to get up to 30 years in jail for something that was allegedly Cheney's fault to begin with.

politics is so corrupt, with cover-your-own-ass tactics, and sacrificial take the fall for your boss results, no matter who's administration

Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:28 am

What?!?

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Audifon

Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:51 am

what?!?



- fyi, political threads here just start fights.

Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:33 am

Graceland Gardener wrote:- fyi, political threads here just start fights.

No one here better start a fight with me over President Bush.

I love Bush.

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Audifon

Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:20 am

No one here better start a fight with me ...


Or what?

:roll:

Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:53 pm

The only good thing about president Bush is that he can not be re-elected!

Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:11 pm

Luuk's comment is a good example of how political threads here go awry.

His opinions of the US President are pointless - he can't vote for him, nor vote against him. It's none of his business.

Whereas Americans have a disadvantage in that we don't know who the leader is of the Netherlands. Is it a President, Burgermeister, whatever?

Luuk's national leader may be a jerk, a crook, an a-hole, but is not world famous enough to illicit comments from outsiders.

But the US President (whoever that may at any point in history) gets a hell of alot of comments, evaluations, and insults from...outsiders.

Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:29 pm

Graceland Gardener wrote:Luuk's comment is a good example of how political threads here go awry.

His opinions of the US President are pointless - he can't vote for him, nor vote against him. It's none of his business.

Whereas Americans have a disadvantage in that we don't know who the leader is of the Netherlands. Is it a President, Burgermeister, whatever?

Luuk's national leader may be a jerk, a crook, an a-hole, but is not world famous enough to illicit comments from outsiders.

But the US President (whoever that may at any point in history) gets a hell of alot of comments, evaluations, and insults from...outsiders.


If Americans do not know much about other countries I think the educational system is not too good.
Here we learn about other countries.

The fact American presidents get a lot of comment is because they always cause war far from home and mingle in other countries' political system if that system does not do what the American president wants.
This has nothing to do with the fact we, the Dutch, the Europeans, the Asians, the Australians, can vote for him or not. But then it shows time after time you are not too well educated on international affairs.
If the American president would mind his own business instead of ours, we would not comment.

Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:29 am

USA is not the notorious invaders you make us out to be,

World War One.....and World War Two.....
Germany and her leadership was the biggest damn problem of the 20th Century.


Way I see if, if you are NOT an American Voter, then hush about American elected officials.


- have a nice day my friend.

--- see Audiofon, political threads don't do well here.

We're here at this mb to discuss our enjoyment of Elvis but get sidetracked by politics.

Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:23 am

GG - You are absolutely right!! Political threads do get tangled here, and practically everywhere else!! (But then Elvis threads also start arguments!!)

But I kind of agree with Luuk in this matter. Whatever the US does affects the rest of the world, more than if another country did it. We do tend to try to manage the world and tend to interfere, and it seems as if we always did!!

sue

BTW, whatever happened to DJC? I miss him!!

Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:44 am

Graceland Gardener wrote:Luuk's comment is a good example of how political threads here go awry.

His opinions of the US President are pointless - he can't vote for him, nor vote against him. It's none of his business.

Whereas Americans have a disadvantage in that we don't know who the leader is of the Netherlands. Is it a President, Burgermeister, whatever?

Luuk's national leader may be a jerk, a crook, an a-hole, but is not world famous enough to illicit comments from outsiders.

But the US President (whoever that may at any point in history) gets a hell of alot of comments, evaluations, and insults from...outsiders.


It all works out fairly in the end.

Bush gets criticised [or praised] around the world.

The Dutch leader does not.

Bush's actions [or inaction] have an effect around the world.

The Dutch leader's do not.

World-wide power and influence bring world-wide condemnation when things go wrong.

Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:13 am

My answer to your thread question is No, he won't get him into trouble as he's such a buffoon he has already gotten himself into trouble over many other things but is not smart enough to realise it.

Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:56 am

Colin B, our leader gets criticised a lot by the Dutch. He is not the one we elected. Our political system with it's many political parties is quite complicated. Therefore a party that loses voters but still is the party with the most voters, supplies the prime-minister. Our current leader is an ass-kisser to Bush and a Christian. He looks like Harry Potter but he does bad magic!
In the meantime polls show his party loses big time so the next prime-minister will be someone more social.

Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:48 pm

You lose me here, Gardener.

We can't be the "only remaining world super-power" or "#1"
-and not expect to hear commentary from other nationalities.

Besides, it's not like the we don't have a direct effect on Europeans,
be it on matters of war, the environment (vetoing Kyoto accord),
labor standards,etc.

Besides, it's a smaller world. This very technology that lets us
dissect "Kissin' Cousins" on a global basis
can certainly be used to comment on
the "Leader of the Free World." :lol:

For those who want to know the basics on this somewhat complicated
story, you might try the article
I posted under this thread :

http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/v ... highlight=

Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:41 am

silver wrote:BTW, whatever happened to DJC? I miss him!!


He's on tour with Bruce Springsteen at the moment. He sends his love to you and GG though.

Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:33 am

If the Dutch don't like the influence America has on the rest of the world, I suggest they get off their collective duffs and do something about getting on par with the U.S. so they'll have a say in matters.

Truth is, it's easier to bitch and carry on about what goes on here because Luuk and his brethren are helpless and have no real voice in world affairs. Sad, but true. Europe had its turn at running the world & it lasted several hundred years. Now, it's our turn. Again, if you don't like it, you have two choices. Turn things around there so YOU'RE the superpower or legally immigrate to America and register to vote.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Oh...and have a nice day! :D

Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:13 am

Eagle -

I think you've slightly missed the point.

Which is, that if you are a powerful force in the world, and your actions affect other countries, you must be prepared for them to comment on what you're doing and how you're doing it.

That's all.

Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:25 am

Colin,

No, I got the point, I believe...and, I stand by my statement. Non-U.S. citizens can comment all they wish, but it does nothing to change the fact that their impotence on the world stage is what's really bugging them.

Oh...and, have a nice day! :D

Fri Nov 04, 2005 7:44 am

EagleUSA wrote:Colin,

No, I got the point, I believe...and, I stand by my statement. Non-U.S. citizens can comment all they wish, but it does nothing to change the fact that their impotence on the world stage is what's really bugging them.

Oh...and, have a nice day! :D


In some cases, perhaps. There are some who seem intent on spouting anti-American rhetoric over the most innocuous of topics. However, to suggest that everyone who criticises America on any level does so because of jealousy and resentment is nonsense. Personally, I have a great affection for America and always have had, and I'm not in the least bit jealous of America's status as the only real superpower. However, that doesn't mean I wouldn't criticise an American policy that had a direct negative impact on the UK. The thing is, I would be criticising that policy, not condemning the US and all it stands for. Rational people should be able to separate the two, and rational Americans should be able to see the distinction.

Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:01 am

EagleUSA wrote:Colin,

No, I got the point, I believe...and, I stand by my statement. Non-U.S. citizens can comment all they wish, but it does nothing to change the fact that their impotence on the world stage is what's really bugging them.

Oh...and, have a nice day! :D


No, what's bugging people is that Bush claimed the occupation of Iraq was necessary because Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was going to use them. Also he killed his own people.

I got news for you: no weapons of mass destructions were found and since the USA occupied Iraq more people died than under Saddam Hussein's reign.

The country was invaded on false pretends and the Americans can not bring peace to the country. THAT is why we comment on the president of the USA.

By the way, Rosa Parks died last week. It was only 50 years ago human rights in the USA were violated against Americans who have a dark skin!

I got more news for you: I don't even want to be found dead in the USA!
(if we dislike something very much, we say we don't even want to be found dead there)

Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:10 pm

Luuk wrote:I got news for you: no weapons of mass destructions were found and since the USA occupied Iraq more people died than under Saddam Hussein's reign.


I have news for you. The second part of that statement is totally false. That's the kind of destructive lie that perpetuates support for the very people that are intent on the Iraq situation not stabilising.

Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:22 pm

Luuk wrote:I got more news for you: I don't even want to be found dead in the USA! (if we dislike something very much, we say we don't even want to be found dead there)


And I don't want to be found dead anywhere but the United States of America. (That's what I say about something I stand for and love very much.)

Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:25 pm

Now my friends tell me that Libby is just the tip of the iceberg. Rove and Cheney may be next. I sure hope the president doesn't go down like Nixon.

I love Bush.

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Audifon

Fri Nov 04, 2005 12:28 pm

I got more news for you: I don't even want to be found dead in the USA!


Strange, though, that about 1.2 million people choose just that every year, deciding to immigrate to our nation -- with about 500,000 people a year choosing to become citizens as well as residents.

Even stranger: That number even includes a fair number of people from the Netherlands.

Just since 1840, more than 220 million people have applied to immigrate to the United States. That of course doesn't count the many millions who have entered illegally.

I realize numbers like that must be staggering to someone from a nation with fewer than 17 million people, but you have to understand there are places people actually want to move to -- not from.