New Orleans
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I see a clear case of someone not understanding how a U.S. government works.
Try article 4 section 4 of he United States Constitution in regard to federal troops cannot be used in place of local cops unless SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR!
So are you blaming the Army for looters shooting people?????
Try article 4 section 4 of he United States Constitution in regard to federal troops cannot be used in place of local cops unless SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR!
So are you blaming the Army for looters shooting people?????
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That´s not what I meant. I think there´s something else laying beyond this violence breakout. Maybe race reasons? I don´t know, but it´s like something that was hidden and suddenly pops up.
Local cops have been proven useless. They have been caught looting in clothing stores. It´s time to deploy the Army and stop this madness.
My point.
Local cops have been proven useless. They have been caught looting in clothing stores. It´s time to deploy the Army and stop this madness.
My point.
Having the government militia is the last thing a state wants. PERIOD I haven't seen any evidence of wide spread violence against people. You sure this isn't a case of the media distorting the facts? I have been watching the news all day and haven't seen any blood whatsoever.
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I don't know what news you're watching, Genesim, (rapes, looting, cops being shot)...Plus,reports are coming out that the National Guard, which would normallybe on the scene by now, has been slow
because so many are over in Iraq.
My bet? The consensus will be that Bush botched this.
"The buck stops here."
But as Bill O'Reilly infamously would say, "we gotta go but I'll give
you the last word."
because so many are over in Iraq.
My bet? The consensus will be that Bush botched this.
"The buck stops here."
But as Bill O'Reilly infamously would say, "we gotta go but I'll give
you the last word."
Last edited by Gregory Nolan Jr. on Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I understand how they can't get to the people because of the flood and all... but WHY were they(the govenment/military) at least in place to get in there and drop food and water on the stranded is beyond me! Four and five days after the fact... is to damn late! Especially considering what they had already gone through! Now that is totaly BS that those people at the Superdome don't have supplies... that was a designated area for them to go... if should be very easy to drop food and supplies in that area for them instead of leaving them stranded!
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I have been watching the same news as everyone else, and it is the National Guard that have been hoisting the people out from day one!!! Didn't they say something like a million gallons of water had been passed out already!!
They were there from day one. PERIOD.
As far as the looting. Yes, I have been watching the footage CONSTANTLY. Pay attention with your eyes, rather then the propaganda. I am sure there have been rapes, and robbings. Then again, is it really anymore then what would happen to a city anyway?
The attitudes that everything is CHAOS AND COMPLETE ANARCHY, are not helping the cause at all. The National Guard are working overtime and 10,000 more troops being deployed is hardly something to scoff at. They have been working hard and thousands have been put up for safety.
I watched the people being rescued since Monday(or Tuesday, I can't remember which) LIVE, so this crock of sh*t that they waited five days is complete bull. Keep in mind that the Hurricane itself was so deadly, and the rushing in of water just couldn't be bipassed.
Also this crap about being over in Iraq. NO we had more then double the staff needed. The problem isn't man power, it is means to get there and equipment. NOTHING to do with Iraq. This is the National Guard, not the freakin army!! That is their purpose, and we were fully manned for the job. More media propaganda.
They were there from day one. PERIOD.
As far as the looting. Yes, I have been watching the footage CONSTANTLY. Pay attention with your eyes, rather then the propaganda. I am sure there have been rapes, and robbings. Then again, is it really anymore then what would happen to a city anyway?
The attitudes that everything is CHAOS AND COMPLETE ANARCHY, are not helping the cause at all. The National Guard are working overtime and 10,000 more troops being deployed is hardly something to scoff at. They have been working hard and thousands have been put up for safety.
I watched the people being rescued since Monday(or Tuesday, I can't remember which) LIVE, so this crock of sh*t that they waited five days is complete bull. Keep in mind that the Hurricane itself was so deadly, and the rushing in of water just couldn't be bipassed.
Also this crap about being over in Iraq. NO we had more then double the staff needed. The problem isn't man power, it is means to get there and equipment. NOTHING to do with Iraq. This is the National Guard, not the freakin army!! That is their purpose, and we were fully manned for the job. More media propaganda.
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If the news reports are correct that I have saw Martial Law is now in effect.genesim wrote: If this dumbass mayor keeps this up, he will have the martial law that he wants declared, and we may see alot more dead people then we orignally forecast at the hands of federal troops.
Tony~
"It's the answer spoken by young and old, rich and poor, Democrat and Republican, Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, Gay, Straight, Disabled and not disabled, Americans who send a message to the world that we have never been just a collection of individuals or a collection of red states and blue states. We are and always will be the United States of America."
-Barack Obama-
"It's the answer spoken by young and old, rich and poor, Democrat and Republican, Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, Gay, Straight, Disabled and not disabled, Americans who send a message to the world that we have never been just a collection of individuals or a collection of red states and blue states. We are and always will be the United States of America."
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Yes there has been help there since day one! BUT it was NOT enough help... are you not seeing what is going on? Oh yea just more propoganda... so you say.genesim wrote:I have been watching the same news as everyone else, and it is the National Guard that have been hoisting the people out from day one!!! Didn't they say something like a million gallons of water had been passed out already!!
They were there from day one. PERIOD.
As far as the looting. Yes, I have been watching the footage CONSTANTLY. Pay attention with your eyes, rather then the propaganda. I am sure there have been rapes, and robbings. Then again, is it really anymore then what would happen to a city anyway?
The attitudes that everything is CHAOS AND COMPLETE ANARCHY, are not helping the cause at all. The National Guard are working overtime and 10,000 more troops being deployed is hardly something to scoff at. They have been working hard and thousands have been put up for safety.
I watched the people being rescued since Monday(or Tuesday, I can't remember which) LIVE, so this crock of sh*t that they waited five days is complete bull. Keep in mind that the Hurricane itself was so deadly, and the rushing in of water just couldn't be bipassed.
Also this crap about being over in Iraq. NO we had more then double the staff needed. The problem isn't man power, it is means to get there and equipment. NOTHING to do with Iraq. This is the National Guard, not the freakin army!! That is their purpose, and we were fully manned for the job. More media propaganda.
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Yes we are seeing the few helicopters and buses live on our TV news. BBC and other European news teams at the scene in New Orleans, and Biloxi keep us informed by the hour.genesim wrote:Oh great another propaganda brainwashed couch quaterback.
They have been taking them out by helecopter, bus, boat...etc. Watch the real live footage, as opposed to listening to the android reporters who keep commenting over the same footage.
You appear to be in a self inflicted fog:-)
Today the News about New Orleans is even worse!
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What purpose would there be to distort facts other than to jack up ratings? I don't think there's any propaganda going on. I was a bit perturbed by ABC's putting a musical score to scenes of the devastation. There is something wrong to me about making this entertainment.
When this all is said and done we'll probably find that there were many decisions that could have been made better. However, my instincts tell me that this was simply something that was impossible to adequately prepare for. When something is as unprecedented as this, it's simply hard to know how to deal with it. You can see it all over. I know a lot of the people who stayed in New Orleans were too poor to travel or had no place to go but you have to figure some figured they would ride out as they had so many hurricanes before. Nobody could have expected devastation at this level. It's that level of devastation that I think left everyone so unprepared victims, lawmakers etc. You could have thousands of potable water and thousands of ready to eat meals and still not have enough because there is not really a precedent. We're talking about a disaster area that is more than 90,000 square miles. September 11 which was largely confined to one area each in New York and Washington was a cake walk compared to this because resources could be better focused.
The men and resources allocated may have been able to handle most disasters but this was very difficult event to prepare for because you are dealing with an unknown. I would say impossible. Something at this level happens every what 100 plus years in a given city maybe not even that. It is very unrealistic to expect anyone to expect a city (or the federal government or the state) to provide adequate funding in advance for something that may happen once every 100 years.
I don't want to make excuses for anyone because officials were slow in acting both after the crisis and before it when the largeness of the event became apparent. And that slowness cost lives. Still, you have to cut at least a little slack because of the scope of the tragedy.
When this all is said and done we'll probably find that there were many decisions that could have been made better. However, my instincts tell me that this was simply something that was impossible to adequately prepare for. When something is as unprecedented as this, it's simply hard to know how to deal with it. You can see it all over. I know a lot of the people who stayed in New Orleans were too poor to travel or had no place to go but you have to figure some figured they would ride out as they had so many hurricanes before. Nobody could have expected devastation at this level. It's that level of devastation that I think left everyone so unprepared victims, lawmakers etc. You could have thousands of potable water and thousands of ready to eat meals and still not have enough because there is not really a precedent. We're talking about a disaster area that is more than 90,000 square miles. September 11 which was largely confined to one area each in New York and Washington was a cake walk compared to this because resources could be better focused.
The men and resources allocated may have been able to handle most disasters but this was very difficult event to prepare for because you are dealing with an unknown. I would say impossible. Something at this level happens every what 100 plus years in a given city maybe not even that. It is very unrealistic to expect anyone to expect a city (or the federal government or the state) to provide adequate funding in advance for something that may happen once every 100 years.
I don't want to make excuses for anyone because officials were slow in acting both after the crisis and before it when the largeness of the event became apparent. And that slowness cost lives. Still, you have to cut at least a little slack because of the scope of the tragedy.
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The thing is, there have been rapes and beatings in the Superdome itself. I find that staggering and it does nothing for my faith in human nature. What the hell are people thinking??genesim wrote:As far as the looting. Yes, I have been watching the footage CONSTANTLY. Pay attention with your eyes, rather then the propaganda. I am sure there have been rapes, and robbings. Then again, is it really anymore then what would happen to a city anyway?
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UN has offered help. President Bush is on his way to the region. It is Friday. Media is attacking him. Is he going to fill Air Force One with the needy? Unlikely. He has been seen smiling, playing a guitar, on Tuesday. People down there are beginning to believe that because they are poor and black, they are being treated as second class citizens. Anger is clearly mounting because they have been paying taxes into the system, yet there is a lack of aid and the amount of time it is taking to evacuate the stranded. The head of the city's emergency services said the federal response so far had been a "national disgrace".
Mayor Ray Nagin used a swear word on live radio. "They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of godda*n — excuse my French everybody in America, but I am pissed." Nagin said he told Bush in a recent conversation that "we had an incredible crisis here and that his flying over in Air Force One does not do it justice ... I have been all around this city and that I am very frustrated because we are not able to marshal resources and we are outmanned in just about every respect." One of the lines that got me thinking was when he said "I don't know if it's the governor's problem, or the president's problem ..." It seems that there SHOULD be a clearly defined chain of command right now, but it sounds like the people involved don't even know who they should be asking for help.
The correspondents, almost all of them white, are cracking under the strain of bearing witness to the suffering and even death of the people who weren't looting, who did the right thing and headed to the Superdome, only to find a worse hell awaited them. They've dropped their script and they're asking tough questions. "We talked to mothers holding babies, some of these babies 3, 4, 5 months old, living in these horrible conditions ...These people are being forced to live like animals. When you look at some of these mothers your heart just breaks ... People need to see this ... what it's really like here. We saw dead bodies. People are dying at the convention center, and there's no one to come get them."
That's good reporting, but has anyone seen a report detailing which roads are open and which are blocked using an overhead map...which waterways are passable and for what reasons...where troops and supplies are staged and where most of the people are ?
Maybe no one is supplying the media with this info, but it could also be that they don't care, and would rather have a reporter shead a tear by a watery street?
Why can't the NG at least be dropping off food and water supplies by air?
The Houston Astrodome is already filled to its capacity. NO has descended into anarchy, with fights and rapes. Cops have turned in their badges..... Amazing how dependent we are on technology and social structure, and how easily we can plunge into chaos if there is a disruption. Imagine what would happen if this happened on a larger scale...
Mayor Ray Nagin used a swear word on live radio. "They flew down here one time two days after the doggone event was over with TV cameras, AP reporters, all kind of godda*n — excuse my French everybody in America, but I am pissed." Nagin said he told Bush in a recent conversation that "we had an incredible crisis here and that his flying over in Air Force One does not do it justice ... I have been all around this city and that I am very frustrated because we are not able to marshal resources and we are outmanned in just about every respect." One of the lines that got me thinking was when he said "I don't know if it's the governor's problem, or the president's problem ..." It seems that there SHOULD be a clearly defined chain of command right now, but it sounds like the people involved don't even know who they should be asking for help.
The correspondents, almost all of them white, are cracking under the strain of bearing witness to the suffering and even death of the people who weren't looting, who did the right thing and headed to the Superdome, only to find a worse hell awaited them. They've dropped their script and they're asking tough questions. "We talked to mothers holding babies, some of these babies 3, 4, 5 months old, living in these horrible conditions ...These people are being forced to live like animals. When you look at some of these mothers your heart just breaks ... People need to see this ... what it's really like here. We saw dead bodies. People are dying at the convention center, and there's no one to come get them."
That's good reporting, but has anyone seen a report detailing which roads are open and which are blocked using an overhead map...which waterways are passable and for what reasons...where troops and supplies are staged and where most of the people are ?
Maybe no one is supplying the media with this info, but it could also be that they don't care, and would rather have a reporter shead a tear by a watery street?
Why can't the NG at least be dropping off food and water supplies by air?
The Houston Astrodome is already filled to its capacity. NO has descended into anarchy, with fights and rapes. Cops have turned in their badges..... Amazing how dependent we are on technology and social structure, and how easily we can plunge into chaos if there is a disruption. Imagine what would happen if this happened on a larger scale...
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I would like to know why in the hell they are only letting 11,000 into the Astrodome! That place probably holds 60 to 80 thousand! If you look at the video from inside they are not letting anyone sit in the chairs! The people are only on the field... now come ON, WTF?? Let those people in instead of just making them wait in the parking area! Now at least Dallas has offered to let them put 25 thousand in ReUnion arena, now I freakin know ReUnion is not as big as the Astrodome. Come on Houston, get it together!
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Officials said the Astrodome had reached capacity for the safety and comfort of the people inside there. The total of 11,375 was less than half the estimated 23,000 people who were expected to arrive by bus.
The Mayor of Dallas has been hinting at the total number of refugees to come to the D/FW metroplex before its all said and done to be 100,000.
The Mayor of Dallas has been hinting at the total number of refugees to come to the D/FW metroplex before its all said and done to be 100,000.
When I originally talked about this I was speaking from yesterday afternoon. I saw people being taken out, and I also saw the busses rolling 50 at a time....it SEEMED progress was being made.
A lot has changed obviously. My initial reaction, because I heard it all day, was that the media was blowing it up. Well this is not the case now.
Here is the question though. Can the behavior be a reflection on what is percieved? All it takes is just a little word back...but I digress.
The facts are that you have to add the anxiousness of getting out...the continued hunger and thirs, and the overall anger building up by the sitation and how all this is playing out mentally. How can rapes and muders go on inside a dome. I don't know. Why haven't there been cops put inside with guns ready to fire..I don't know that either.
As fas I know Martial Law still hasn't been declared, and federal troops have still not been called. The governer of the state must make a formal plea to the president. So far all have been just a bunch of complaints, which is understandable, but they are going the wrong way.
One observation I have noticed...where are all the white people? Why is it that they got interviewed first when leaving the dome??? Maybe I am wrong on this too, but it seems like there are a aweful lot of black people suffering and showing every hour as either the dying..or the looters. Why is it that the same isn't for the white portion of the U.S.?
Now this is just a knee jerk reaction, and maybe I am wrong. It could be that there are white people suffering, and that is how they choose to point the camera....perhaps a little of both. Still the whole thing is disgusting. The state has done a pitiful job. The president is responsible now, because it is obvious that the state does not know how to govern itself. There has been help and G.W. Bush has been on top of it from the beginning. This mess is going to be cleaned up, but it takes time. There have been alot of balls dropped, but if you wanna put blame, then you have to start at the local level. It shouldn't be up to the administration to cover it up FIRST. That is the problem. The media wants it that way. There should have been criticism levelled at the right source. Why did first reports talk about rebuilding Casinos? Why did they first report on the boating industry? Why wasn't there talk about the repair of the levees being the first thing on their mind? Why didn't they also state how the levees that were going to be built wouldn't have been strong enough?
The first words were...G.W. Bush is to blame. He is doing a terrible job.
Still it is too late now, and the important thing is getting the mess cleaned up and then point fingers later.
My attitude on the Astrodome is the same. Yesterday the people seemed to not be filling it fast, but now when I see the crowds outside, I only can WHAT THE F*CK! Those people need to get out of there and there should be convoys on all sides. It seems to me that there is alot of picking through the crowds instead of loading them up as fast as possible. I am sure the real story of what went on inside the dome or down there will never really be told.
A lot has changed obviously. My initial reaction, because I heard it all day, was that the media was blowing it up. Well this is not the case now.
Here is the question though. Can the behavior be a reflection on what is percieved? All it takes is just a little word back...but I digress.
The facts are that you have to add the anxiousness of getting out...the continued hunger and thirs, and the overall anger building up by the sitation and how all this is playing out mentally. How can rapes and muders go on inside a dome. I don't know. Why haven't there been cops put inside with guns ready to fire..I don't know that either.
As fas I know Martial Law still hasn't been declared, and federal troops have still not been called. The governer of the state must make a formal plea to the president. So far all have been just a bunch of complaints, which is understandable, but they are going the wrong way.
One observation I have noticed...where are all the white people? Why is it that they got interviewed first when leaving the dome??? Maybe I am wrong on this too, but it seems like there are a aweful lot of black people suffering and showing every hour as either the dying..or the looters. Why is it that the same isn't for the white portion of the U.S.?
Now this is just a knee jerk reaction, and maybe I am wrong. It could be that there are white people suffering, and that is how they choose to point the camera....perhaps a little of both. Still the whole thing is disgusting. The state has done a pitiful job. The president is responsible now, because it is obvious that the state does not know how to govern itself. There has been help and G.W. Bush has been on top of it from the beginning. This mess is going to be cleaned up, but it takes time. There have been alot of balls dropped, but if you wanna put blame, then you have to start at the local level. It shouldn't be up to the administration to cover it up FIRST. That is the problem. The media wants it that way. There should have been criticism levelled at the right source. Why did first reports talk about rebuilding Casinos? Why did they first report on the boating industry? Why wasn't there talk about the repair of the levees being the first thing on their mind? Why didn't they also state how the levees that were going to be built wouldn't have been strong enough?
The first words were...G.W. Bush is to blame. He is doing a terrible job.
Still it is too late now, and the important thing is getting the mess cleaned up and then point fingers later.
My attitude on the Astrodome is the same. Yesterday the people seemed to not be filling it fast, but now when I see the crowds outside, I only can WHAT THE F*CK! Those people need to get out of there and there should be convoys on all sides. It seems to me that there is alot of picking through the crowds instead of loading them up as fast as possible. I am sure the real story of what went on inside the dome or down there will never really be told.
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Bush has conceded that the initial response was "unacceptable" but pledged to get on top of the situation. Why this notion that local resources could ever have been sufficient? We are talking about an almost unprecedented natural disaster here, so of course outside relief was essential from the start.
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Well I don't blame GWB or the Federal government for this, they do own a part in there somewhere at some point. But the local government really dropped the ball on this! Didn't GWB declare this a disaster zone on like Sunday... I mean come on here's a clue Lousiana! Time to leave! They should have been loading up those school buses with as many as they could... and got them out of there... now those buses are under water. It's just a mess through and through!
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Tj though I agree that the initial hit couldn't have been stopped. What about the exit strategy?
How many school busses have been deployed all across the state of Louisianna? What about every kind of food vender available getting ready? Was there plans before this? When they didn't get the funding that they supposedly needed(although it sounds like it wasn't going to be enough anyway for a category 5 Hurricane), did they provide a safety back up? Or did they say..well f*ck it..let the people just swim! If they really thought there was danger, then they should have prepared and then more prepared.
Why is it that the Mayor is griping to the media instead of talking on the phone straight to the superior?
All these things should be considered. The local level is the first that should prepare. That is how our system works. The president is not a KING, he is to oversee when a local level is not doing their job. It is up to the STATE to govern itself first. That is where the failure was.
It sounds like G.W. Bush is the one that took the initiative, and that is why there are National Guard troops doing all the work. The local law seems to be clueless.
Jeff good point. It sounds like there was alot of warning, and yet many just waited to see what happened. I am not just speaking about the average joe, I am speaking about all the locals. There simply was no plan!
How many school busses have been deployed all across the state of Louisianna? What about every kind of food vender available getting ready? Was there plans before this? When they didn't get the funding that they supposedly needed(although it sounds like it wasn't going to be enough anyway for a category 5 Hurricane), did they provide a safety back up? Or did they say..well f*ck it..let the people just swim! If they really thought there was danger, then they should have prepared and then more prepared.
Why is it that the Mayor is griping to the media instead of talking on the phone straight to the superior?
All these things should be considered. The local level is the first that should prepare. That is how our system works. The president is not a KING, he is to oversee when a local level is not doing their job. It is up to the STATE to govern itself first. That is where the failure was.
It sounds like G.W. Bush is the one that took the initiative, and that is why there are National Guard troops doing all the work. The local law seems to be clueless.
Jeff good point. It sounds like there was alot of warning, and yet many just waited to see what happened. I am not just speaking about the average joe, I am speaking about all the locals. There simply was no plan!
Last edited by genesim on Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wait, is there no end to YOUR partisen? Do you not undestand how government works? A tragedy happens in a state, and the administration is the first thing you blame???
The governments job is to be backup to the state. The local level must act first!
All you want to do is put down the president over and over again. Yet what about the ones that are DIRECTLY resposible for this tragedy?
The governments job is to be backup to the state. The local level must act first!
All you want to do is put down the president over and over again. Yet what about the ones that are DIRECTLY resposible for this tragedy?
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People are always eager to jump on others and look to place blame instead of tackling the problem. When the events started to unfold early this week, you knew that, sooner or later, it would melt down to being a political issue. Bush-bashers will inevitably say the problems were his fault. Republicans would say the same things if Bill Clinton were in office. But does everything have to deteriorate into a them vs. us battle?
There is plenty of blame to go around. Certainly, the aid was too slow in getting to those who need it. But, the affected citizens need to realize that a bit of patience is required to get them the assistance they need. It is not going to happen quickly, given the numbers of affected people.
We can sit here and debate that we "should have done this, and could have done that...," but what does that accomplish at this point?
Remember, there is no blueprint to follow with something like this.
There is plenty of blame to go around. Certainly, the aid was too slow in getting to those who need it. But, the affected citizens need to realize that a bit of patience is required to get them the assistance they need. It is not going to happen quickly, given the numbers of affected people.
We can sit here and debate that we "should have done this, and could have done that...," but what does that accomplish at this point?
Remember, there is no blueprint to follow with something like this.