Top Tier Movies

Maybe I expected too much or maybe it has to grow on you. I have only see it twice once in the late 80s and once in 2003.

I very much respect the movies out of that era like Gone With the Wind that managed convincing effects without computer animation. The amount of human labor that went into that stuff is truly breathtaking. As I said before I love the visuals and I love Rhett Butler. It's not exactly that I don't like it, it's just that it doesn't knock me out. Maybe I have a thing against Vivien Leigh. Even in "Streetcar" where she has Brando to act with, she's a bit much at times. It's really a combination of a lot of the things I mentioned. It just doesn't jell for me. Your points are well taken though. It could be one of those things.

There are a handful of all-time classic movies that just don't cut it for me. The chief one is "The Graduate" which I find far less satisfying then "Gone With the Wind". It just seems phony and contrived to me. I'm glad it made Dustin Hoffman a star but I can't stand it.

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Gone With the Wind
Titanic
It's A Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World
A Shot In The Dark
Out Of Africa
Rio Bravo
Singin' in the Rain
All The President's Men
Some Like It Hot
Cat on a Hot Tin Roof
The Towering Inferno
Arsenic And Old Lace
Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid
From Russia With Love
Around The World in 80 Days (David Niven)

There are a handful of all-time classic movies that just don't cut it for me. The chief one is "The Graduate" which I find far less satisfying then "Gone With the Wind". It just seems phony and contrived to me. I'm glad it made Dustin Hoffman a star but I can't stand it.

omg. i agree with you. i had a friend who was obsessed with simon & garfunkel as well as dustin hoffman, and had me watch it. half-way through i was forcing myself to keep my eyes open and getting deeply disturbed by mrs. robinson's bad tan lines. i thought the plot was there for shock factor and most of it seemed like it was shot with a home video camera. not what i would call a high point of movie making.

amadeus is one of the FEW oscar winners that deserved any of its awards. still bummed tom hulce didn't get the best actor. i thought his mozart must have taken a lot more emotional energy and personality than f. murray abraham's salieri. but that's the academy for you--can't give an oscar to a former delta tau chi.

meh, i don't put much stock in the academy awards. if you'll note how many of their favored movies slip into obscurity while the fan cult favorites seem to live forever.

i'm a big fan of the judy garland/mickey rooney movies also. those are my favorite old movies. not exactly oscar-worthy, as they all have a line pertaining to "hey, i know. we could put on a show!" or a plot centering around a bunch of small town kids putting on a show to save an orphanage or the like. or perhaps the dating blunders of andy hardy. but i love them.

elvis' best is jailhouse rock, in my opinion.

as far as special effects in old movies--the wizard of oz (1939) and dr. jeckyl and mr. hyde (1920) had some of the best for their day. heck, i thought the effects in georges méliès' voyage to the moon (1902) looked cool.

Well I have covered Gone With The Wind enough. I am getting ready to watch the documentary part of Vivien Leigh and Clark Cable will be next(I switched order on account of you Like The Bike. lol). Watching extras on DVD enhance the experience. Kind of like knowing more about Elvis. When you only see a small facet of his life, it is easy to judge, but once more pieces of the puzzle come together the appreciation is much deeper. This happened with watching the Lord Of The Rings special stuff(though I have yet to finish all the Return extras...but I will!), and Gone With The Wind continues to be a true eye opender.

I watch Steetcar for Brando..he cracks me up in that. I have yet to see it uncut and it has been so long since I watch it, that critiquing it now wouldn't be right. I do remember VL going way out there though, and I can see your point.

You know I gotta agree with the Graduate. As a younger boy, the movie had a great effect on me(gee I wonder why. lol), but as time goes on, I feel that Dustin Hoffman was miscast. Now don't get me wrong the running part is truly a rush, and you gotta admire the chase right down to the end. That is determination boy! I remember listening to the Mike Nichols interview saying he got reprimanded for using a cross to bar the doors...and he states, well it is in the book, and if I needed to bar a door in a church, that is what I would use! lol

Incidently, Hoffman is good at telling stories. He talked of going to another premiere and some old short lady reviewer, who was slower then they were, was on the stairs. She stops looks at Hoffman while he is talking and points. "You..you are that guy in that movie." Hoffman says it was like she was waving a magic wand.... And she says "Your life....your life will never be the same"

The movie has dated parts, but damn it is the same thing. Even talking about the film makes me want to see it. The scene I like is where Mrs. Robinson is talking with him on the bed about her past and what went wrong. As a young teenager I could definetely identify with his character. Weren't we all absolutely "young and stupid"? Oh yeah, and not to mention the kick ass Simon and Garfunkel tunes.

Though for the record, I would pick Midnight Cowboy in a heartbeat over The Graduate in terms of greatness.

As far as academy award, I didn't just pick Oscar winners. The Wizard of Oz was snubbed in most every way in favor of Gone With The Wind.

p.s. Elvis Babe..you give Mrs. Robinson a break...she was the world's first true MILF!! I would have kept her going..and left Katherine Ross alone. She was so boring compared to crazy mama!

Lets see...great sex on one hand....and women that is going to cry by being put in a strip bar in the other....HMMMMMM Decisions decisions. lol

personally i thought eric "otter" stratton and the dean's wife marion wormer from animal house was more fun than dustin hoffman and mrs. robinson. same message in the end really--don't have an affair with a married older woman. same story, just animal house's version was more condensed and tongue in cheek. and the graduate is the oscar-winning snooty version.

yeah, i'm not exactly high-brow. i'll take john belushi pouring mustard on himself or dan aykroyd saying "we're on a mission from gahd" over most oscar films.

i also have a close affinity with all the disney classics (today's disney movies suck!). peter pan and the little mermaid are my favorites. sleeping beauty, aladdin, alice in wonderland, beauty and the beast, etc...are also favorites. i've seen and own pretty much all of the classics. the old animation was so beautiful compared to today's. it really bums me out that they can't animate that beautifully anymore. in fact, i love disney's peter pan so much i belonged to a peter pan messageboard about 2 years ago. no kidding.

pete's dragon, swiss family robinson and darby o'gill and the little people were favorites of mine as a kid.

i really hate bambi and dumbo though. i really don't enjoy either of those. i don't like the lion king either. funny, i don't really like the animal ones. though i do like the rescuers and the rescuers down under... i watched the great mouse detective a lot too... and lady and the tramp... i guess it's just those 3 animal disney movies i hate then.

the boys turning into donkeys used to scare me in pinocchio but it has the best musical score of any disney movie ever.

the queen turning into the witch in the snow white RIDE at disneyland still spooks me. i used to sing the dig dig dig song non-stop when i was really little--i used to drive my dad nuts.

as far as recent disney ventures, pirates of the caribbean is the only worthwhile thing they've done in the last decade. and that was because of johnny depp.

speaking of johnny depp--another favorite movie of mine is edward scissorhands. beautiful romantic tragedy. i love the parts with edward and kim. poor edward. i'm a sucker for the loveable misfits.

when i was 8 years old i watched hocus pocus 6 times in one day. i was totally obsessed with that movie as a kid. i still watch it about 10 times on the disney channel every year when it runs in marathons during halloween. "thank you max. for that mar-velous introduction." bette middler is cool. and young thora birch was so cute! and the boys that played max denison and the human binx were really hot. lol. i actually used to cry frequently during the scene where emily leads binx to heaven--i still cry over that scene.

march of the wooden soldiers with stan laurel and oliver hardy was one of my favorite childhood films. i still like it--in fact i watched it last christmas on tv.

another good children-friendly disney film--the adventures of huck finn with elijah wood.

i like fellowship of the ring the best of the lotr movies. i liked return of the king too. the two towers dragged as a movie and focused too heavily on pleasing orlando bloom fans (legolas is hardly in the book that much). but i liked fellowship best because it was mostly about the hobbits and the original 9 members. frodo and sam are my favorites, followed by merry and pippin. could careless about aragorn and legolas--i really didn't get into them. (i read the books in 2 weeks--didn't like the hobbit as much though). gandalf, bilbo, gimli, and gollum are also great.

when i was about 9 years old i was really into old horror films from the 20s-60s. you know, the classics. a lot of boris karloff, vincent price etc... the one that used to scare the sh*t out of me was night of the living dead. the little girl eating her dad's liver and stabbing her mother with a shovel was permanently ingrained in my mind. the teenagers getting barbecued and then the zombies are seen eating their body parts--another part that was ingrained. i kept watching it over and over again even though i was scared sh*tless hiding under a blanket for more than half of it.

vincent price's the house of wax (1956) is a true masterpiece. i love it.

Funny how you mention Disney. I would consider Pinnochio a great movie...maybe even close to Top Tier. Hard to argue with that.

Animal House has its place but it is no Graduate. IMO. Though you saying that The Graduate isn't tongue in cheek? Please. Maybe Animal House is more obvious(and hardly the main story), but rest assured the references are there. Another of my favorite scenes is when Mr. Robinson is calling Dustin Hoffman a deginerate and Norman Fell only needed half an excuse anyway! The funny part is for the last of several times he says he wants him out. Dustin asks for one quarter....and Norman says he is calling the police..and then Dustin asks can he make one quick phone call first! Now again, that is a man on a mission. lol

Comparing that to John Belushi. Just what did John do that was separate say..then the Saturday morning cartoons or a Three Stooges episode? I don't fault it, and it does have its place, but I hardly call it monumental.

But again, The Graduate isn't on my list either.

Incidently Elvis Babe do you like the Lion King?

nope, hate the lion king. it's one of the bad recent disney films. the one that started the ones that got even worse. ugh...other than timon and pumba...and perhaps the hyenas...i'll give it a miss. similarly didn't like pocahantas much either.

john belushi, imo, was a non stop laugh riot. blues brothers, animal house, and his work on snl make for some of the funniest comedy ever. yes...i'm a very big aykrushi fan. low-brow comedy, but still better than the high-brow stuff--which i've never found funny at all. "was it over when the germans bombed pearl harbor? hell no!" "the germans?" "forget it, he's rolling."

and as this is a messageboard for people who like oldies--if you haven't seen blues brothers--SHAME! i don't think it's possible to hate that movie. comedy, music, cameos, nazis, cars... "it's 106 miles to chicago, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses." "hit it."

i have the soundtrack to this film. the blues brothers album briefcase full of blues is also brilliant. belushi and aykroyd's versions of soul man, flip flop & fly, everybody needs somebody, she caught the katy, etc...are really good.

and the graduate was one of the worst movies i've ever seen, imo. i only mentioned the otter/marion wormer plot because i still think it was done better. and the graduate isn't funny, it's boring and filmed in really horrible camera work. btw, bluto and boon are my favorite characters in animal house. what can i say--i like those two john landis movies. a lot of famous people too--donald sutherland, karen allen, etc...

i have this pretty strong dislike for artsy fartsy film faire. especially foreign films--which are mostly pretty boring. not my thing.

ooh. and how could i forget beetlejuice. michael keaton, winona ryder, geena davis, alec baldwin, catherine o'hara, jeffrey jones--at their best. tim burton is a genius. i love this kind of supernatural stuff. great harry belafonte tunes.

Last edited by Elvis' Babe on Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Dog Day Afternoon
The Blues Brothers
Goodfellas
The Breakfast Club
Apocalypse Now
One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

"maybe something from the molly ringwald oeuvre" as buffy would say...

yup...love those molly ringwald movies:

the breakfast club (i like the criminal and the basketcase)
sixteen candles (watched it on my 16th bday)
pretty in pink (i like ducky)

in the same genre:

ferris bueller's day off

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ok, i'll go a little higher "top-tier" for you (what is top-tier for the academy and what is top-tier for me differs greatly as can be seen)...

e.t. (spielberg's classic)
a few good men (i like tom cruise)
rain man (i like tom cruise)
interview with the vampire (tom cruise, brad pitt and kirsten dunst all did fabulous work here)
meet joe black (by far, brad pitt's best acting besides interview--anthony hopkins was great here)

hairspray is a good movie if you don't mind the wacky world of john waters. lol. ricki lake, divine , sonny bono... michael st. gerard looks more like elvis in this movie than he did in great balls of fire.

my cousin vinny is also very funny. joe pesci...

loved the first two home alone movies as a kid.

trains, planes and automobiles is a classic.

grumpy old men and grumpier old men are more classics.

my dad LOVES mousehunt. it's his favorite movie. he's a big christopher walken fan. again, not with the high brow. the plot is two guys trying to catch a mouse.

Ok you have listed many many movies..how could they all be top tier?

I wasn't speaking of just good movies. I could list a hell of alot more on that account.

You keep mentioning academy awards, but yet like I said for The Wizard Of Oz..and perhaps a few others, I did judge on those merits. I judged on what they did for film. The innovation, the movies that stand alone. Not just..."yeah I liked them alot" parameters.

The Breakfast Club??? I love the movie, but how the hell did it change film making? How did it have such an original story as all others should be compared to it??

Though let me get off subject and quibble some-

Tom Cruise-Magnolia for acting.
Fight Club-Brad Pitt though Seven is a close second for me.
Spielbugh I already named. E.T. while being a huge fan, to me is nothing compared to JAWS..and falls way short of Schindler's List. A perfect film in most every way. Empire of the Sun is another fine film, though not in the same clas as the others mentioned.

You didn't answer my Lion King question.

look up a few posts--i answered the lion king question. ok, i'll give it another point for elton john.

ah see, i hated both magnolia and fight club--too artsy fartsy. liked seven a lot though. best tom cruise film is top gun, man! that's the true classic of the bunch. i like risky business too, but that's another story altogether.

curly sue, men in black, willy wonka (gene wilder), sleepy hollow, grease, my fair lady...

when i was around 10-12ish, my friends and i would watch now and then a lot.

look up a few posts--i answered the lion king question. ok, i'll give it another point for elton john.

ah see, i hated both magnolia and fight club--too artsy fartsy..

Perhaps maybe too dark for you. Though I for one think that both movies had tons of humor in them. Perhaps originality and a departure form the norm isn't in tune to some people. It does confuse me for one to HATE the movies. They are both well filmed and have many twists and turns. But like I said, they are darker, which turns off many a viewer.

I am going out on a limb here, but did you understand the movies?

I notice alot of themes of your movies are A. really happy..or B. have a sex appeal. This is indicative of a younger crowd. Just an observation. Though I cannot argue with the enjoyment of many of your films you listed.

As far as the Lion King...sorry I missed that. Strange you should dislike Bambi so much because essentially it is the same story, though for me Bambi is far superior.

My post is not to piss you off, but to understand the rationale. I have made some prejudiced judgements, but it is what I have observed as well.

bambi and the lion king both--i don't like either of them. remember i said i don't like the animal ones as much? also dumbo.

i do like darker movies--check the lists again. and imo, many may have sex appeal but that's not why i like them. in many cases, i prefer and identify with the stories in these more. if you'll note themes like low-brow classic comedy, supernatural etc...

i also jones for movies with lots of costumes--like amadeus. amadeus is mostly a drama, however, a fairly hysterical one. but the best scene is still without a doubt the requiem mass scene. in other words, my favorite scene of the movie is the death scene.

i also mentioned boys town awhile back. best scene was where peewee gets hit by the car while whitey (rooney) is trying to leave boys town. i bawl every single time i see that scene.

so i wouldn't say i'm just a guy drooling teenybopper. hardly. i think the fact that i watch old horror flicks, old films, and old musicals dispells that. if i were a teenybopper i'd be into orlando bloom and hayden christensen (both of which i think are talentless hacks) and probably not be posting on an elvis presley messageboard, due to the fact that he is 52 years older than i am.

and if you know my taste in tv faire, you know a lot of it has evil fiends who stalk and kill friends, flaying people alive, breaking social isolation habits, revenge, redemption, episode-length death scenes, walking obituaries of dead characters, murder and denial, drinking yourself into a depression, sleeping with a guy and he goes evil, using others selfishly, family, sacrifice, betrayal--great judas analogy with wesley btw, being an outcast, your past biting you in the ass, and many other examples of dark plot...

^ and yes i am talking about buffy the vampire slayer and angel: the series. not light faire by any means--though that is frequently misunderstood by the parent show's craptacular tongue and cheek title.

seen the episode restless?--it's like a completely disconnected lsd trip. one of my favorite episodes has an attempted rape scene and a nerd (who just had killed his ex-girlfriend) killing somebody with a gun--IN ONE EPISODE. and yes, if you know the series, i am talking about seeing red. how about stealing your best friend's kid, getting your throat slit, getting rejected from your friends, and then sleeping with the enemy?

(ok, not movies, but as far as creative and engrossing use of storytelling through visual media--it made better use of it than most theatrical films.)

so don't take a lot of the things i like on the surface.

tim burton for example, has been a genius at twisted fairytales and stop motion animation. his use of models in his films is astounding.

i am far from picking film material for it being happy or having attractive guys--though i dear say the hot guys thing is a plus. in fact, only a small number of things i like are void of seriousness. even animal house deals with issues (though you might have missed them--take the racism, youth rebellion, or outcast issues for example).

and belushi, imo, wasn't a heartthrob on his best day--though cute in a weird way. aykroyd had his moments back in the 70s.

back to the future I, II & III are all really good movies too. loved michael j. fox as marty mcfly as much as i loved him as alex p. keaton. and christopher lloyd is always cool. once again supernatural--this time time travel. this to me, is creative storytelling. which impresses me a lot more than elitist film critic ideals.

the wizard of oz is an obvious example of brilliant filmmaking that got snubbed. and i'll take this over gone with the wind (however, i do love the "frankly my dear, i don't give a damn" line).

i do like clark gable--saw another really cute film with him about a year ago too...something about being a reporter and a rich girl runs away from home...and i think they meet on a train...and the girl is being persued by her father...

there is NO SUCH THING AS HIGH-TIER. it is all in the eyes of the beholder. the reason i keep mentioning oscars is because many people's generalization and distinction between "good" and "bad" movies is what these "critics" say. which to say, how is something as SEEMINGLY mundane as animal house any less of a film than the graduate?

I wasn't saying you were a teenybopper, I was saying that your demographic fell into certain tastes. Buffy The Vampire Slayer to me solidifies this. Though I do like the show quite a bit. I don't remember restless though because I stopped watching after the first couple of seasons.

This is where you and I disagree. There is a distinct difference between dark subject matter..and simply having people's throat getting cut. In other words...downers. Dealing with more mature subject matter. Violence is hardly a measure.

As far as there are no Top Tier movies, I disagree completely. The Academy Awards are not my measure... but there is an indicater there.

The measure is how did the film effect the way other films were made. What changed after said film came out. How can you measure Animal House with Gone With The Wind?? There is simply no comparison, in scope..story...ACTING...technique...age(yes this can be a factor)....

Will people be saying Animal House, now there is a movie that anyone can relate to in 100 years....I doubt it. As good as it may be.

p.s. Why not pick out your absolute favorites instead of listing every movie you ever liked. Back to the Future II and III??? Top Tier movies??? I am not trying to put down your taste, but at least give it a shot of reality. Like I said in the first post, we all have guilty pleasures.

Oh yeah, to comment further. I am a big John Belushi fan and the movie "Neighbors" I enjoyed quite a bit....along with the other said films.

II and III were really good! how are they not good?

ok, it's wrong to compare animal house to gone with the wind (i used this example against the graduate for effect)...but between the two, the one i find more creative is animal house. yeah, that's right. i said creative. to me, coming up with the gags they did in that movie were creative. and apparently people agree with me because in 1978 the top box office movies were grease and animal house. 'nough said. it's a best loved factor. hardly a guilty pleasure, as a lot of people relate to it. a lot of older generations love this movie because there's a part of themselves in at least a couple of the characters. it mirrors their college experiences. i for example am a bit of a cross between pinto and boon.

american graffiti is the oldies end of high school right of passage movie. it's a montage of stories that happen in one night to a bunch of kids and kids who won't grow up (milner).

and oh by the way--try watching angel: the series--it's twice as serious as btvs. it's a very dark show. in fact, it depressed the hell out of the average viewers, until only the fans were left. for example the whole thing of angelus and darla killing holtz's family, holtz going 200 years in the future for vengeance, angel and darla spawn a prophecized kid, darla sacrifices herself to birth it because without it's soul she won't be able to love it and potentially harm it, wesley sees a prophecy that says angel is going to kill his own son, wesley steals connor--gets his throat slit by justine--and holtz takes the baby, sahjhan who instrumented holtz coming back wants connor dead because he is prophecized to kill him, holtz jumps into a hell dimension and angel loses the only son he could ever have, wesley is thrown out of the group and angel actually tries to smother him at the hospital, he tortures lindwood (evil law firm guy) to get connor back, connor finds a way back with holtz, holtz taught connor to hate his father, holtz has justine kill him to make it look like angel killed him so connor stays loyal to him, holtz keeps angel's son alive even though angelus killed his, connor sinks angel to the bottom of the ocean just as angel thought his life was getting better, etc...

yeah, so don't write off the buffyverse as fluff. a little more complex than that. a lot of moral questions come up. season 4 is where people got turned off of buffy because after angel left it sucked for awhile, until spike took the lead. angel was more consistant in terms of quality than buffy was.

buffy is NOT a teenybopper show. it's disguised as one. but if you actually were thinking about what you saw, it's more in the vein of the original star wars...and actually a lot darker. don't believe me, watch it. there are 3 episodes in season 5 of angel alone that make me cry like a baby--centering around fred and wesley's deaths. and i'm a tough nut to crack for tears--really.

once more, with feeling is the buffy musical episode with a full musical score and all original singing by the cast. hush is the silent episode that was nominated for an emmy. restless was the lsd trip. lies my parents told me goes pretty close to oedipus rex territory with william (spike) and his mother. soul purpose is another lsd induced dream episode--complete with fred emptying angel's insides and saying he is empty, honky tonk lorne, spike averting the apocalypse and getting a reward from the blue fairy and getting buffy--playing into angel's biggest fear. smile time has angel being replaced in the episode by a puppet. or perhaps the episode the body that is the scoobies just morning joyce's death and the episode has absolutely no music to comfort the audience.

and if you want to take creepy relationships--cordelia and connor is disturbing as hell. first she was changing his diapers and then the higher power that hijacked her body is sleeping with him to birth itself and brainwashing the sick youth. think evil pregnant lady. that beats the graduate for uncomfortable weirdness. lol

there's more creativity in that show than most movies have done since perhaps--tim burton and george lucas. and the references to old horror movie creature features is all tongue in cheek. it's more about hero's journey.

BTW--I USED TO HATE BTVS. i remember picking it apart years ago because i didn't understand the themes and i thought it was pointless teenybopper rubbish. it wasn't until i gave the show an educated look that i finally understood it.

anyway--back to movies.

yeah, i like the movies i've listed here. many of them have sentimental value to me because they were a part of my childhood. they take on a whole new meaning in that context.

when i was younger i grew up on the shirley temple movies. you could say they are happy go lucky movies, but i say they were made to teach young children important life lessons. family is a big theme in many of them. sure, you can sing along to "the good ship lollypop" but they aren't void of important stories.

i guess sometimes a lesson enough is that it's a good thing to be a child at heart. and i can think of no other set of movies than shirley temple's that say that more clearly.

that is something i think you are missing genesim. movies aren't all about caliber, it is about how they affect you. it's not the twists or turns or edgy subject matter. it's how they relate to the audience. and to me, high tier movies are in the vein of movies that spark wonder within the audience or "make them happy for that one hour that it comes across" in the words of elvis presley.

What is your take on the last of the epic movies, Cleopatra?

I just ordered this 3-disc Special Edition in gatefold packaging.
Looking forward to the comprehensive two-hour documentary.

II and III were really good! how are they not good?

When did I say they are not good??? This was a post about Top Tier movies, and you get two inferior movies from a trilogy...where even the first one doesn't compare! III never even made sense due to certain stars being put in the wrong roles...add to that casting problems anyway with his girlfriend not coming back and Elizabeth Shue filling the role?? So why not have Elizabeth play his great great(??) grandmother?? FLAWED. And you list those as Top Tier movies!

In thinking about Animal House...lets talk about creative. What about the Marx Brothers? If it weren't for the Hayes coded, a movie like Horse Feathers would have covered the ground in spades. The burning down of the actual college I hope someday resurfaces. You want to talk about crazy, lets compare John Belushi to Harpo Marx! Again, this is an example of what is innovative compared to ground that has already been covered time and time again. I mention this because I was going to put a Marx Brothers film in...but alas, they just don't stack up to the ones mentioned.

I mentioned Neighbors(which was a complete flop) because I find it an enjoyable movie and it actually put John Belushi into the straight man role. This to me is a nice twist because wondering when he is going to crack makes it all the more fun. Still John was great in his day, but compared to heavies as the "crazy" guy....he falls short.

movies aren't all about caliber, it is about how they affect you.

No I don't believe that when it comes to the Top Tier movies. It isn't just about the effect on some of us....I could get inspired by a bag of cheetos..doesn't mean a damn thing to the grand scheme of things. It is about what inspired more film makers and the majority of the audience. What changed the way film was seen on a grand scale. Not just what joe blow thinks..but how the world has percieved it. I admit my list isn't perfect, but at the same time I haven't listed every film that ever touched me personally either. Streamlining...that was what I was looking for inspiration.

My criticism was not to make enemies, but state my reasons for why I think some of the movies..the I consider great too, do not make my list.

Now about Buffy and Angel. For a while I got into them, and I watched Season One of Angel..and 2 Seasons(most of three as I remember) of Buffy and I enjoyed them for what they were. Perhaps someday I will go back, but like any series...addicting, but hardly monumental. This is just my opinion, but Buffy is like a soap opera to me...with Angel being darker and more enjoyable. But alas, I have already mentioned the greatest soap opera and that was in 1939.

once more, with feeling is the buffy musical episode with a full musical score and all original singing by the cast.

You are kidding..right? I know the episode in the library, and I thought it strange, but are you gonna compare it to the greatest musicals ever made??? It is hard to even comment on that one. It was good for fun, but Buffy compared to Judy Garland....

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Melanie,

I used to own Cleopatra. It was the 5 star collection. Well done. I hope that one day more footage will show up. Though I don't blame Zanuck...perhaps Cleopatra would have faired better in the Lord Of the Rings crowd. A special edition for the crazies would have been greatly enjoyed. As it stands the movie for the most part is unrealized. Alot of it has to do with budget. The last quarter of the movie reflects this. The pitiful "battle" at the end to me was just a limitation.

I think the film is unfairly criticized in a Waterworld capacity, but at the same time alot of money was wasted because of destroyed sets and the like. Still on its own, not great, but very much a curiosity. One cannot get away from the fact that it is a gorgeous film to watch.

whoa whoa...never compared once more with feeling to a judy garland musical. but for a tv show, it's pretty damn outstanding. and btw, the best voices of the bunch--tony head (giles), james marsters (spike) and a lot of people like amber benson's (tara) and even emma caulfield (anya) has been praised. gellar is indeed a bad singer (and not my favorite actress of the bunch by far)--even i'll admit that no problem. tony head and james marsters are actually in bands and tony head has been in the music biz before he was ever on buffy.

i only mentioned the particularly weird artsy fartsy episodes (really not my favorites) is because you seem the artsy fartsy kind of person. believe it or not, once more with feeling is the episode where buffy reveals to willow that she wasn't in hell but heaven. so it also continued the plot. when inner thoughts are openned up through song, it turns out that much of what they had to say hurt each other and brought up their insecurities, when otherwise they never would have been said. that was the point of the weird episode.

and judy garland musicals--i love those too. and i like shirley temple musicals. and i like the blues brothers as a musical. all examples of actors that sing.

and i liked bttf II and III. i wasn't bothered by the girlfriend's switch at all, because it wasn't really a main character. marty, doc, biff, the mom and the dad were the main characters. she was frequently the bookend.

heck, i liked ghostbusters II and blues brothers 2000, so whatever. it's all up to interpretation.

an opinion of what we consider top tier entertainment differs person by person.

example: i don't like the graduate, i don't like westerns, most sci-fi movies drive me absolutely bonkers...but somebody here probably thinks john wayne and star trek are fabulous. me on the otherhand, gives star trek venomous death threats of dislike. it's a personal opinion. i don't like the superman movie either. but i love batman and batman returns with michael keaton.

and yes, i would rather watch spice world than the graduate. neither of which i would put as top entertainment choices.

top tier means nothing. it's in the eyes of the beholder. i'm sure somebody out there loves clueless. i happen to dislike it greatly. just like i like the star wars original trilogy, and i'm sure a lot of trekkies hate it. not because it's not top tier, but because it's not their thing.

as far as plots that speak to us--whereas the graduate speaks to you, perhaps some wacky crazy movie with little plot or seemingly unrealistic tv show speaks to me. we all get different things under the surface.

genesim--you have a critic's bias. i have sort of a pop-culture bias.

Boy this is tough. Let me break it down further.

You mention that "artsy fartsy" epsiode, because you think that is what I love.....

No actually, I like GOOD ART. Not some half ass attempt at it. That is the difference.

Now let me try to restate what I have stated many times in another way.

INNOVATION-while something may have an effect on you...perhaps because it is the last thing that you have seen, but this is not the norm. There is a clear cut case of what came first. What had the biggest impact, on not just you, but the rest of the globe!

I have said continually that there are different definitions by from each person...but you continue to name films as if all of them are in the same class. How can everyone of those movies impact you in the same way?

I am not just a fan of critics as you say, though I do concede that you are for pop culture alone. Spice World over The Graduate??? Hmmmmm Perhaps getting through is tougher then I thought.

perhaps some wacky crazy movie with little plot or seemingly unrealistic tv show speaks to me.

The problem is that what speaks to you is more then likely a knockoff of what came before. You are having trouble discerning the difference.

The problem is that what speaks to you is more then likely a knockoff of what came before. You are having trouble discerning the difference.

Thus delivering the knockout blow to an already wobbly kneed opponent.

Excellent point Genesim!

I used to own Cleopatra. It was the 5 star collection. Well done. I hope that one day more footage will show up. Though I don't blame Zanuck...perhaps Cleopatra would have faired better in the Lord Of the Rings crowd. A special edition for the crazies would have been greatly enjoyed. As it stands the movie for the most part is unrealized. Alot of it has to do with budget. The last quarter of the movie reflects this. The pitiful "battle" at the end to me was just a limitation.

I think the film is unfairly criticized in a Waterworld capacity, but at the same time alot of money was wasted because of destroyed sets and the like. Still on its own, not great, but very much a curiosity. One cannot get away from the fact that it is a gorgeous film to watch.

IMO this is one of those movies where you just don't feel the length, because you get immersed into the world of Egypt and Rome.

Cleopatra is shown passing through the Arc of Constantine, a monument that was built centuries after her death. So the filmmakers are a bit off here, but I guess they were looking for a dramatic effect. Otherwise the historical accuracy is a real treat. More creative liberties were taken to make the adaptation of "The Illiad". The siege of Troy lasted 10 years, here it lasts 10 days, including a number of cornball lines. Contemporary Hollywood blockbusters

Cleopatra: Overall superb set design and art direction, no crappy CGI effects here. A lavish historical spectacle, if you can get over the dull moments. It was meant to be two 3 hour films. So the cuts are glaringly obvious in many places. ie the senate goes into some speech about something and suddenly it cuts away to something else. Cleopatra and Antony are arguing and suddenly the story is somewhere else...

What if 20th Century Fox wouldn't have made the film?
The old studio system wouldn't have been undermined.


Interesting Trivia

Adjusting for inflation, this is the most expensive movie ever made to date (mid-1999). Its budget of $44 million is equivalent to 270 million 1999 dollars.

Various employees of Rome's Cinecitta studios where this was filmed stole several millions of dollars worth of equipment and props while production took place.

Widely regarded as one of the biggest flops of all time, reality is quite different: the film made its money back despite the horrendous costs, but not at all once--it took several years. It was one of the highest grossing films of the 1960s. According to the late director Joseph L. Mankiewicz, many of the best scenes were cut and there are between 90 and 120 minutes of character development and story missing. Fox is said to be looking for those scenes.

The Oscar is not a critic's award it is a peer award. That is both the source of its credibility and its greatest flaw. Presumably the people who do the voting certainly know what they are talking about. Everyone votes within their own particular discipline (I.E. actors vote for actors, directors vote for directors etc.) with everyone voting for Best Picture. However, this system is easily perverted. It often devolves into a popularity contest. That Brando's a prick, I'm voting for Rock Hudson. Many Academy voters don't take their responsibilities seriously and never see all the nominated performances or films. Many times they are swayed by studio publicity campaigns. Some Academy members are truly ignorant of work that came before and therefore don't recognize innovation when they see it. (Anybody who thought "Good Will Hunting" deserved an Award for Best Original Screenplay was born yesterday.) Also, it is an inherently conservative body. To get appreciation for a controversial or daring or violent work is like pulling teeth. This is what was responsible for the biggest travesty of recent years when the lightweight "Shakespeare in Love" upset "Saving Private Ryan". Still, it is a peer award and carries a decent amount of weight because of that.

It is a valuable award because it does convey a certain legitimacy. Since everybody knows the Oscar, it makes people curious to see the work. Many classic films are kept alive at film societies because of Oscar connections.

The studio system was on its last legs by the time "Cleopatra" hit. That was just the deathblow.

I understand what you are going for Genesim but to me I would rank innovation as only one evaluation criteria. Craft, creativity, emotional resonance, individuality all have to play a role. For me though the #1 criteria is timelessness. That's why I include something like "Sierra Madre" it's timeless.

By the way we mentioned "Psycho" before and if you want to get into influencing filmmakers you could toss in nearly every movie Alfred Hitchcock ever made.

Has "Citizen Kane" been mentioned? It basically invented half the cinematic techniques that have been used in the past 60 odd years.

It's a Wonderful Life!
Pulp Fiction
Silence of the Lambs
Arsenic and Old Lace
Jaws
Goodbye, Mr Chips
Ryan's Daughter
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
Some Like it Hot
A Christmas Carol (Alistair Sims)

The Delboy hall of shame! The following movies I've never seen...

Casablanca
None of the 'Star Wars' series
Schindlers List
The Shawshank Redemption

i only said i would rather watch the [horrible] spice world over the graduate because the graduate to me, is a terrible film. i don't love it one bit. i don't think it's in any way creative. you may. and i didn't find it "innovative" at all. just poorly made shock value.

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the academic merits of btvs & ats: http://www.buffyguide.com/links/Everyth ... ndex.shtml

try to say now that it's not critically acclaimed for being innovative. they've written frickin' published books of essays and on how the dialog is written. really. some college pop-culture courses talk about it because it was INNOVATIVE!

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many flicks i have mentioned, may not be "critically acclaimed" but they are for the most part all incredibly famous pop-culture hits. the audience is the ones voting here, instead of the critics. pop-cuture phenomina interests me way more than what won the oscar back in 19...

possibly the only reason the academy let the lord of the rings: return of the king bust their award count number is because of the embarassment of titanic holding the lead at the time.

remember the big obsession about titanic when it first came out? it's now popular to put down on titanic today--that's it's legacy. but it was a critical and audience darling at the time.

star wars was also SNUBBED by the critics. it was it's pop-culture legacy and resonance with the viewers that made critics reavaluate it years later to cover the fact that they had been wrong. and innovative? yes, in special effects, but the story was taken from mythology and serial adventure stuff from the 40s like flash gordon. it also was influenced heavily by star trek.

night of the living dead (1968) -- still to this day one of the scariest films ever made, and made with an incredibly low budget. the black guy is the smartest and the last to die in this movie on purpose. look at the year.

so a seemingly rubbish plot about zombies eating people becomes a civil rights message.

animal house is an anti-establishment movie. or possibly a tale of rebellious young people.

revenge of the nerds is a movie where the nerds defeat the jocks that tease them. important message, i'd say, even though this movie is bound to get no critical acclaim for obvious reasons.

all the 80s teen movies starring molly ringwald, michael j. fox, anthony michael hall, matthew broderick, etc... were all about growing up in the 80s. they are important time capsuls.

so seemingly mundane movies may mean nothing to you unlike the critical darlings citizen kane or gone with the wind (i have nothing against these movies), but don't brush off pop-culture phenomina.