Off Topic Messages

Bring back hanging and National Service to the UK.

Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:18 pm

Im pretty much disgusted how my country has become so soft on crime.

Some teenagers are lacking respect and discipline and all they seem to want is an easy life.

I think it would do them good with 6 months of National Service like the brilliant programme 'Bad Lads Army'.

The drug culture in the UK and around the world is totally out of hand and needs to be sorted out now.
Some youngsters have no respect for anything and the police cant touch them cause of all these soft welfare workers etc.

Two senseless murders in the UK where two morons decided to take the lives of 2 yound men in 2 seperate incidents.The victims were not doing anyone any harm , just out with there girlfriends.
One was a mindless racist attack which left a poor lad dying with a axe embedded in his head and another was stabbed cause he asked some one to stop throwing chips at his girlfriend so his killer decided to stab him.

People who take someones life like that should be stung up.

This country is not gonna get any better but gonna get much worse unless something drastic is done.

Sean

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:09 pm

I have to admit I'm getting more conservative with age.

I'm not sure if hanging would quite end the woes here in the USA, however. Getting fed up is a good start.

Check out the depressing headlines of today's New York Daily News:


Truck prank kills Bx. boy
A delivery truck with a drunken prankster behind the wheel raced out of control down a Bronx street yesterday and killed a 3-year-old boy as it left a horrific swath of broken bodies and damaged cars in its wake, police said.

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Cop survives hit-&-run
A Queens cop cheated death on the Belt Parkway early yesterday when a hit-and-run driver rammed her as she put down flares near a fatal wreck, police said.

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Teen chops up girl next door: N.J. cops
Shock and disbelief ripped through a quiet New Jersey town yesterday when cops charged a teen, Jonathan Zarate, 18, with the murder and dismemberment of the quiet and brainy girl next door.

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Her ex kills beau, then shoots self
A jealous man gunned down his ex-girlfriend's new lover as she watched in horror yesterday on a Brooklyn street - and then used her as a human shield during a gunfight with cops, police said.


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He dies after going berserk
A deranged man who allegedly smashed his forehead against a wall and a parked car died shortly after he was handcuffed by Brooklyn cops, police said yesterday.

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Midtown maniac
Dangling from chains off a Manhattan hotel balcony, a man showered midtown with bizarre leaflets about Florida tourism yesterday - triggering a massive police response amid fears he had a bomb.


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Drowned tots were 'sticky' The Yonkers parents charged with drowning their two toddlers in scalding bath water wanted to wash the boys because they were "sticky" from lollipops, a family friend revealed.


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Judge nixes bail try by bat suspect
The Howard Beach teen charged with clubbing a black man with a bat is getting more spiritual in jail, his lawyer said yesterday as she tried to spring him on bail.


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Dad weeps for camper
The father of a New Jersey teen killed in a tragic Catskills crash sat inches from her coffin yesterday and wept uncontrollably for his lost "baby" at her funeral Mass.

Just another summer in New York. :shock:

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:35 pm

Greg,

Yes, you have made me even more depressed.

From New York to London.Its a shame things like this go on and will keep going on.
Why cant we all just live in happiness and peace.

I think im abit like Robert De Niros character in Taxi Driver when asked what he would do.He said' they should get all the slime and scum out of the streets and put them into a big net and drown them' or something like that.
Sean

Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:43 pm

Sean Ryan wrote:Greg,

Yes, you have made me even more depressed.



Sorry about that, Sean :? Actually, they say the crime rate is down, from high of the '70s and '80s here in the USA and specifically New York.

But compared to what? I doubt 1950 was this bad.

I will say the social fabric is more frayed despite other advances.

That DeNiro character captured the problem of how getting "too outraged" can be a problem, too.

Image
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Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:59 pm

Sean -

The vast majority of our young people are OK.

Some sections of the media give a disproportionate amount of space to reporting the misdemeanors of a few.

In your daily life, are you adversely affected by young people committing crime ?

Probably not; like me you read about it and see it on the box.

Makes it seem more widespread than it is.

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:18 pm

Yes your right.

The vast majority of young people are ok.

But they should still bring back National Service.

Sean

Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:24 pm

Let's talk stats: is crime up in the UK?

Since the '70s?

Since the '50s? Just curious.

I do know that the USA is way ahead in homicides.

We're off the page.

Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:27 pm

Im sure that the homicide rate is much higher in the US.

I would take a guess and say that all sorts of crime are much higher now than back in the 50's 70's.

The problem with Britain is that its not as patriotic as the US is.

Believe it or not , there are some places where your not allowed to have the national flag of England on display. :roll:

The UK has alot of idiots who run the country.Even though im not a Blair supporter i dont think that there is anyone else who can do the job better.

Most people in the UK feel let down by our government.
Thats the feeling i get.

Sean

Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:59 pm

Sean Ryan wrote:Believe it or not , there are some places where your not allowed to have the national flag of England on display. :roll:


Sean


I've heard about that!

Even the US has had a few squabbles over neighbors finding flags "tacky." :roll:

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:27 pm

Gregory Nolan Jr. wrote:
Sean Ryan wrote:Believe it or not , there are some places where your not allowed to have the national flag of England on display. :roll:


Sean


I've heard about that!

Even the US has had a few squabbles over neighbors finding flags "tacky." :roll:


Yup....but (at least in Florida) saner and more patriotic heads prevailed. Condos and homeowners associations can no longer bar the flying of "Old Glory".But how unutterably sad that there was ever a controversy over something like this

Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:42 pm

Sean Ryan wrote:Believe it or not , there are some places where your not allowed to have the national flag of England on display. :roll:

Let me guess! Birmingham (where it's no longer Christmas, it's 'winterval'), Oldham, Bradford, North West London, Luton and 10 Downing Street! :wink: It'll take a brave man to tell me to take to take it down. :evil:
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Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:03 am

Sean:

I'm just curious - how long were you in the army for? I always think it's oh so convenient for people of my generation to say that National Service would do the kids of today the world of good, because we are too old to enlist and therefore we don't count.

A few points to remember before trotting out the old National Service routine. First, military service is not a quick fix of anything. Remember, our armed forces carries its fair share of d***heads too. Deepcut, anyone? Second, the primary reason why kids of today are kids of today is because of the Selfish Generation of parents - ie people my age. All these parents seem to care about is themselves and the kids are often a hinderance to their going out and enjoying themselves. Educating their children seems to be too much of an effort, it's always someone else's responsibility. Parents think kids should be educated at school but not at home. But wait - there's a problem there. This generation of whizzkid politicians are not far sighted enough to invest properly in teachers and resources in our schools so they naturally buckle under the responsibility of having up to 60 a class in some areas. The natural consequence of this is that what teachers there are left are too overwhelmed and physically incapable of giving detailed attention to every child so the child feels that no-one gives a toss about them. Thus, they go out looking for attention in any half-brained way they can.

Crime. Those of us who are "law-abiding citizens" look at the rampant trail of teenage offences and think that someone should do something about this. See? Someone else's problem again. I agree that in every case of crime the perpetrators must be locked up for the good of society, and indeed there are those hell bent on causing trouble, but don't you think it is up to us, as their parents and their parents' generation, to do something about it first? Stop putting the responsibility on to the army. What happens if the army fails them and crime rates do not drop? We then turn round and say it's the army's fault, once again shifting the burden of responsibility on to someone else.

Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:33 pm

Delboy wrote:
Sean Ryan wrote:Believe it or not , there are some places where your not allowed to have the national flag of England on display. :roll:

Let me guess! Birmingham (where it's no longer Christmas, it's 'winterval'), Oldham, Bradford, North West London, Luton and 10 Downing Street! :wink: It'll take a brave man to tell me to take to take it down. :evil:
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Say what? That's ridiculous. It's almost happening in the USA, too. That's PC-ism run amuck. And I say that as someone who long appreciated a general separation of church and state. Now, it's just gettting silly. Couple that with the influx of Muslims into Europe and I wonder what people are thinking. Hello, Euro-abia :roll:

Stephen, well-put. The "me-generations" in the USA are also reaping what they sowed. Actually, all of society is suffering as a result, but I will concede major economic changes (primarily deindustrialization) in the US also aggravate family stability in the last 30 years. In general, however, I blame the prevailing deemphasus on standards and "don't judge anyone" credo. If anything, kids need tough love. Today, they are in charge.

Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:28 pm

Stephen Butler wrote
"]Sean:

I'm just curious - how long were you in the army for? I always think it's oh so convenient for people of my generation to say that National Service would do the kids of today the world of good, because we are too old to enlist and therefore we don't count.

RUBBISH!

A few points to remember before trotting out the old National Service routine. First, military service is not a quick fix of anything. Remember, our armed forces carries its fair share of d***heads too.

There's a hell of a lot more young "out of control" dickhead's (as you so fondly call them) roaming our street's though.

Second, the primary reason why kids of today are kids of today is because of the Selfish Generation of parents - ie people my age. All these parents seem to care about is themselves

Speak for yourself mate......We aren't all like you ya know.

and the kids are often a hinderance to their going out and enjoying themselves. Educating their children seems to be too much of an effort, it's always someone else's responsibility.

Again, speak for yourself,

Parents think kids should be educated at school but not at home.

Jeez, you don't half talk out of you're arse at times....what do you think SCHOOL is for??....We as parent's have to help them along in their education, by reading to them.......helping with homework etc etc.... But their main education comes from their schooling.


But wait - there's a problem there. This generation of whizzkid politicians are not far sighted enough to invest properly in teachers and resources in our schools so they naturally buckle under the responsibility of having up to 60 a class in some areas. The natural consequence of this is that what teachers there are left are too overwhelmed and physically incapable of giving detailed attention to every child so the child feels that no-one gives a toss about them. Thus, they go out looking for attention in any half-brained way they can.

When i was in school, there were only 24 of us in my class......We had a good teacher who had time for all of us.

Also.....when i was in school, if i or my friends, or all of us were naughty/bad whichever way you want to put it.......we either had the cane or the slipper...we accepted that......it was part of our school life...And if we went home and told our parents we'd had the cane/slipper, we'd probably get a "shouting at" from them too........for being naughty in school.

Today however......the teachers cannot chastise naughty children AT ALL....So the children of today have NO authority over them at all (in school)
Therefore- they think they can do whatever they like, without consequences.......And they leave school with this attitude.......Therein lies a lot of the problem.


Crime.....Those of us who are "law-abiding citizens" look at the rampant trail of teenage offences and think that someone should do something about this. See? Someone else's problem again. I agree that in every case of crime the perpetrators must be locked up for the good of society, and indeed there are those hell bent on causing trouble, but don't you think it is up to us, as their parents and their parents' generation, to do something about it first?

AGAIN....You're putting the blame on us as parent's......The problems with the children of today is NOT all our fault......If that's what you think you're a fool.

Stop putting the responsibility on to the army. What happens if the army fails them and crime rates do not drop? We then turn round and say it's the army's fault, once again shifting the burden of responsibility on to someone else.

Nobody said to make the army responsible for them.....Sean said:
"I think it would do them good with 6 months of National Service like the brilliant programme 'Bad Lads Army'."


I presume what he means is that maybe National Service would teach them responsibilty towards others, It may also teach them some manners, And help to make them realise that we all have to stick by the rules... Basically, so that they'll come to realise that they have to be responsible citizens like the rest of us.

Sq
Last edited by the squirrel on Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:55 pm

Seems maybe things aren't quite that different across the pond with respect to our young people. There's always some bad apples in every bunch, but what I'm seeing quite a bit more of is this whole sense of entitlement. Kids are just being given too much. There seems to be less urgency among parents to instill in their children a sense of responsibility and commitment and just basic manners.

I had to speak with a neighbor once about her 12 year old son's behavior and activities around my home. Her reply? "I can't know what he's doing 24/7 and I can't control what he's doing." My reponse, "Yes you can, it's called parenting...you should try it sometime."

Needless to say, we're not having cookouts at each other's homes. The point is that a lot of parents count themselves lucky that their kids aren't involved in more serious offenses and will gladly look the other way if it's something that isn't blatantly criminal. That just encourages continued bad behavior.

I'm in favor of structured programs, school uniforms, compulsory service and anything else that will help kids in an increasingly challenging world where they aren't getting the direction they should be from their parents.

By the time they're 18, if all else fails, I'm not completely ruling out just shooting 'em.

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:03 pm

I have failed as a parent! I've been wanting my daughter to watch Viva Las Vegas with me since I got the MGM film set. I finally got her to watch it last night - after dismissing a fews pleas from her to watch Harem Scarum again! And she abruptly got up and went to bed right as the big race was starting! As if this wasn't bad enough she asked me if she could have Harem Scarum! Where have I gone wrong? Is there an Elvis re-education camp I could send her to?

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:06 pm

Squirrel:

Sadly, your post is clear evidence to all rational people of PRECISELY what kids of today are up against. How long were you in the army for? Interestingly, every sentence you write falls into the cliches that are sending our children onto the streets and into crime.

As is usual with your nonsense, it is difficult to know where to begin. The most important error you make is the difference between teaching kids to read and write and being valued. That is where education at home comes in.

My point is, again as usual, missed by you, although others seem to be able to read it quite clearly it seems. My point is that I never said school or the armed forces were unnecessary. I said that they were used by half-witted cliche-trotters who have no idea what they are saying and use them to foist their own inadequacies of parentage on to others.

Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:15 pm

Squirrel, I like you, but your hysterical reply to Stephen's reasoned and rational post really puts you in a bad light. C'mon mate.....you can disagree without being disagreeable. I know it's hard at times when someone is nasty or insulting, but Stephen was neither.

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:45 am

Scatter wrote:Squirrel, I like you, but your hysterical reply to Stephen's reasoned and rational post really puts you in a bad light. C'mon mate.....you can disagree without being disagreeable. I know it's hard at times when someone is nasty or insulting, but Stephen was neither.


Not this time Scatter, but remember the "Playboy and the (Homo) Sexual Revolution" thread?

LOL

Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:59 am

Stephen Butler wrote:Squirrel:

Sadly, your post is clear evidence to all rational people of PRECISELY what kids of today are up against. How long were you in the army for? Interestingly, every sentence you write falls into the cliches that are sending our children onto the streets and into crime.

WTF are you drinking?.......I addressed ALL your point's.....that's the way i feel about them, and i am entitled to feel the way i like.....Just because you don't agree....Does that make me wrong?.....Who died and made you God all of a sudden.

As is usual with your nonsense, it is difficult to know where to begin. The most important error you make is the difference between teaching kids to read and write and being valued. That is where education at home comes in.

My children do read and write at home with me, and plenty more besides......And they feel very valued thnx very much....I spend a hell of a lot of quality time with my children..WTF are you on about?

My point is, again as usual, missed by you, although others seem to be able to read it quite clearly it seems. My point is that I never said school or the armed forces were unnecessary. I said that they were used by half-witted cliche-trotters who have no idea what they are saying and use them to foist their own inadequacies of parentage on to others.


You are a cheeky &8$%........how dare you insinuate i'm an inadequate parent.

You are a perfect parent are you?

Sq

Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:27 am

squirrel -

You wrote:
You are a perfect parent are you?


I am.

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:14 am

Scatter:

As usual, your voice of reason falls on deaf ears. The likes of Squirrel will never accept that it is their responsibility to teach children respect for others and their property, and not schools or the armed forces, for whom I have the utmost respect. Re-introducing National Service will not teach them this, it will merely give "parents" a break from having to do this themselves.

Squirrel:

No, I am not a perfect parent. That is my point. You've got it all wrong again. You may well be sitting at home helping your kids to read - great, except that is the part that is the responsibility of the schools! For Christ's sake, please re-read what I have written before ranting on again. Everyone who says that schools and the army should be teaching children manners is basically admitting that they cannot do it themselves, or cannot be bothered. Again, I ask you (one of the points you did not address), how long were you in the army for? Did it sort you out? My initial point (which you misinterpreted) was that it is our generation, in which I include myself in its weaknesses, who have inherited this "a couple of years in the army will sort them out" cliche from our elders who actually did the National Service and thought it was the answer to everything (it was not). Inheritance of rhetoric is so much easier than actually thinking up solutions for ourselves and being bothered to do something about it. That, again, is my point.

Your problem here is that you personalise a concept of mine based on your view of me from another thread. That was obvious from the start. Insinuate that you are a bad parent? If your kids are running around the streets setting fire to people's cars, mugging old ladies, smashing bus stops and robbing video shops then yes you are; if they are not, then you are doing fine. What I am saying is that the parents of those kids about whom this thread is discussing are failing their children, not the schools or the armed forces. And don't make me laugh when Sean talks about contextual reality TV shows like Bad Lads Army. That's the television equivalent of reading a sentence in The Sun and imagining the whole world is like that. Who's to say what those kids do when they go home and the cameras are switched off?

And then you talk about how great school was in your day. Fantastic. But again, that is what I was saying! Our schools are being let down by short-sighted whizzkid politicians (I think that was the phrase I used). Perhaps you could point out to me exactly where it was I said that schools of today were perfect. Teachers today work under the most horrendous conditions brought upon them by central government, by local authorities and by parents. This I know as my wife has been a teacher in mainstream schools, special needs schools and home tutoring since 1990.

By the way, I'll tell you WTF I have been drinking: it is called reason. I think you should try it sometime.

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:34 am

You aint read my post's properly, either that or you've misinterpreted some of them.

And i can't be bothered to keep writing paragraph after paragraph of post's just to argue the toss with you so we'll have to agree to disagree.

You have your opinions and i have mine so let's leave it at that.

Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:47 am

Squirrel:

I don't think I have, because I have tried to explain what I was on about in the first place, rather than responding to anything that you wrote in the initially (you responded to my post, remember?).

However, I do not have a problem with you having your opinion, and I take your last post to me to mean that you at least understand what I was saying, even if you don't agree with it. Which is fine.

Carolyn:

I don't believe you have been a bad parent to your child and I hope you don't think that. It is clear that you took your responsibilities very seriously and although I obviously don't know your daughter I bet she knows and respects that.

Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:23 am

schools are too afraid of lawsuits to do anything to bullies.

i went home crying after school to my parents many many times because of how kids treated me at school. they would go in for me and with me to try to get the people in the office do do ANYTHING about the bully problems. the staff would actually try to blame ME because i was obviously doing something wrong to get teased by their wonderful students. :roll: problem was, was that the staff favored the popular kids--and i wasn't popular, though known by everybody in the school (really, i was infamous).

my dad tells stories of growing up in the 40s and 50s where he would go with his brothers from allentown, pa to nyc to go to a baseball game and they were only like 7 and 8 years old. they would go alone on the train! he also tells stories of a teacher hanging him up on a coat hook by his overalls when he was misbehaiving.

my mom's dad used to use the belt. my mom never misbehaived because she was afraid of that belt. she only got it once and never did anything ever again.

i admit, i am a spoiled child--a really, really spoiled child. but i'm also a goody-two-shoe because my parents spent time with me. there's a lot to be said about that. they put me before 'having fun by themselves'. too many parents want to take vacations AWAY FROM THEIR KIDS. my parents always took me on the vacations and i usually picked the place i wanted to go because of my interest in history. the kids that have parents that consider them a chore are the kids that have problems. it's the latch-key kids generation now.

there are a lot of divorces that happen for completely superfluous self-centered reasons. it's mattering less and less about the kid's wellbeing and more about if the parents are having 'fun'. the kids are being ruined by this lenient use of the word 'marriage' and feminism is ruining the kids having a parent at home.

women and mothers have nurturing qualities in their nature FOR A REASON. it's how we were made. we are made to raise families and be the nurturer.

on farms, women were the nurturers with the family and the guys were out in the field. the providers. it's what our bodies and inherant emotional qualities were built for. and it's the biggest flaw in feminism. you can be equal without ruining families. being a nurturer is as important a job as being a provider. and kids who have two providers and no nuturer are only getting half the package of a family.

i was lucky. my mom quit her job as a flight attendant so she could take care of me, and my dad retired about 5 years ago (they're also older than most parents of people my age--50s and 60s). i became a smart kid because my mom was there to make sure i learned things and loved to learn. i would be stupid if the school system was the only one teaching me. i could hardly read in 1st grade. my mom taught me because i wasn't learning it in school. so i started reading the dick and jane books and doing phonics. this was in the middle of the whole new-agey mickey mouse math era of school systems. i learned because my parents are old-fashioned.

and speaking of old-fashioned--in the case of true heartless bastards, i totally support the block, the guillotine, the gallows, and the electric chair. the fear of those things actually would keep a lot of people from becoming criminals. it's not so much a device to kill people as it is a way to stop them from ever becoming criminals. criminals laugh at us now because no matter what they do, they will be out of jail in a couple years anyway. :roll:

and prisons--especially the women's prisons, are getting closer and closer to being like camp cupcake. what happened to chain gangs?