Off Topic Messages

Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:10 pm

Steve -
Let me take a crack at this. The whole idea of 'God Bless America' has it's roots in our Declaration of Independence. You know, that famous document where my forefathers basically told your forefathers "we're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore!" The last sentence of the Declaration reads as follows: "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

In short, our founding fathers put their trust in God as to their fates for what they were embarking upon in separating from England and forging a new nation. This putting trust in God is the basic idea behind God Bless America.

Stephen -
I gotta take up for the French. Food is one of the few things that they do rather well. Along with wine. And maid's outfits. :)

Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:39 am

Yeah - great Pete - fantastic!

Thing is I don't have a problem with it, neither does anyone who comes on here I imagine.

But I'm struggling to get the question across which is once again, do you think others may have a problem with it in other parts of the world because they have taken a different meaning from it on a more litteral sense ?

I know some couldn't give a rats ass whether someone else is ignorant, but I do when their ignorance takes three planes and kills 3000 plus innocent people. Call me old fashioned.

Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:08 pm

Some Muslim groups have expressed concern that the UK police have a 'shoot-to-kill' policy in operation.

This is following the death of the Brazillian suspect.

Well, they do !

The reasons for using firearms when attempting to make an arrest are:

1] To immobilise the suspect in order to prevent him getting away and to allow police to arrest him.

A disabling shot to the legs would suffice in this case.

2] If the suspect poses an immediate threat to life, he can be shot in the head or chest in order to kill him outright.

In the UK, our armed police can only open fire in the No.2 situation.

Not No.1.

So it is 'shoot-to-kill' or 'don't shoot at all' !

Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:45 pm

Some Muslim groups have expressed concern that the UK police have a 'shoot-to-kill' policy in operation.


...and UK police have expressed concern that some Muslim groups have a 'detonate-to-kill' policy in operation.

Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:13 pm

Steve_M wrote:Yeah - great Pete - fantastic!
But I'm struggling to get the question across which is once again, do you think others may have a problem with it in other parts of the world because they have taken a different meaning from it on a more litteral sense ?

I know some couldn't give a rats ass whether someone else is ignorant, but I do when their ignorance takes three planes and kills 3000 plus innocent people. Call me old fashioned.


Those fanatics did what they did on 9/11 because of their warped interpretation of Islam, Allah and the Koran, not because of proclamations of God Bless America. Remember Steve, they view us non-Muslims as infidels, so our proclamations of God Bless America are meaningless to them, or at worst an insult to Allah.

Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:19 pm

Colin -
GG makes a valid point. If a suspect is armed with a bomb or detonator and the police shoot to only wound him, the suspect is still able to detonate the bomb.

I understand the Muslim's concern, but the way to avoid getting shot is to stop when the police command you to. If you're innocent and have nothing to hide, then there shouldn't be a problem.

Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:38 pm

Graceland Gardener wrote:UK police have expressed concern that some Muslim groups have a 'detonate-to-kill' policy in operation.


I believe that says it all right there.

Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:47 pm

Pete -

You wrote:
Colin - GG makes a valid point. If a suspect is armed with a bomb or detonator and the police shoot to only wound him, the suspect is still able to detonate the bomb.


Well, I know, I didn't mention that as it was self-evident.

Just making the point that our armed police are not allowed to shoot unless there is a threat to life, and then it's shoot-to-kill.

Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:49 pm

Buried in the story of the slain Brazilian national in the U.K. has been the apparent fact that the victim was (surprise!) an illegal alien.

Is that right? It's not surprising.

How far we've come in the USA as a nation. In New York City, well-intended people are cheerfully opening their bags for the cops, who in many cases don't even want to see them. (See today's N.Y. Post for more. As the editorial states, let the cops open the bags they are concerned about, not the other way around.). Either way, Ben Franklin must be spinning...

Then I see the following in today's New York Daily News:

Homegrown terror warning

New York should be more scared of homegrown terrorists inspired by Osama Bin Laden than foreign Al Qaeda infiltrators, a federal official said yesterday.

"We have to be concerned about who is already is in our midst, as opposed to somebody who is being deployed from abroad," John Brennan, the outgoing interim chief of the National Counterterror Center, said at an NYPD-sponsored corporate security conference. "Who is a terrorist among us?"

Brennan said the recent transit bombings in London and Madrid revealed a new face of terrorism: less sophisticated, radical Muslims from local communities who have "a willingness to engage in a less spectacular attack" than 9/11.

Brennan also warned that Iraq has become a breeding ground for terrorists who have become skilled at launching attacks in urban settings. The new generation of madmen could enter the U.S. "and bring with them the tactics and techniques they've developed there," he said..."


http://nydailynews.com/07-27-2005/front ... 3535c.html

The latter comment confirms my earlier stated reservation about the multi-billion dollar Iraq debacle.

I reiterate: the President's de facto open border policy is an utter disaster and a scandal.
Last edited by Gregory Nolan Jr. on Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:04 pm

Greg -

You wrote:
Buried in the story of the slain Brazilian national in the U.K. has been the apparent fact that the victim was (surprise!) an illegal alien. Is that right? It's not surprising.


I mentioned in an earlier post that he was here on a student visa which had expired, and which wouldn't anyway have allowed him to work as an electrician.

This would at least explain why he ran away when challenged.

The latest is that his family dispute this version of events.

Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:25 pm

Thanks for the extra information, Colin, confirming that he was in fact an illegal immigrant.

In no way do I want to sound like he deserved what he got (despite my initial impression that he was an actual terrorist), but I also think people are slow to realize that there is a war going on. And it's on the domestic front as well, thanks in part to our porous borders and "we are the world" approach to nationality and citizenship in the USA and Europe, but namely wayward Islam.

I hope the British public is reserving most of their outrage for the terrorists who made such a tragedy happen in the first place.
Last edited by Gregory Nolan Jr. on Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:44 pm

Greg -

You wrote:
Likewise, I hope the British public is reserving most of their outrage for the terrorists who made such a tragedy happen in the first place.
_________________


Apart from some concerns within the Muslim community, most of us are giving our full backing to the UK police.

There have been 250 'suspected suicide bomber' incidents dealt with by our police since 7th July.

They opened fire just the once.

That shows remarkable restraint on their part, I feel.

Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:55 pm

From the BBC website...

TUBE BOMB SUSPECT HELD BY POLICE

Suspected bomber Yasin Hassan Omar has been arrested by police in Birmingham investigating the failed 21 July attacks in London, the BBC understands. Omar, 24, suspected of the attack near Warren Street Tube station, was held in a dawn raid after being hit with a Taser stun gun, the BBC has learnt. It is believed a rucksack he was carrying at the time was thrown out of a window by officers. He is now thought to be at London's Paddington Green police station.
In other developments:
• Police searched two properties in Enfield and Finchley, north London.
• Two people were held in Grantham, Lincolnshire, on a train travelling to King's Cross, under the Terrorism Act 2000 at 2300 BST on Tuesday following information from two off-duty Met police officers.
• A man who was detained under the Terrorism Act at Luton Airport has been allowed to continue his journey to Nimes in France. Police said they had responded to reports the man looked like one of the bombing suspects and he was held while his identity was checked.
• The body of innocent Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, who was shot by officers at Stockwell Tube, is to be returned to Brazil for a funeral.

In Birmingham, shortly after the man believed to be Omar was arrested early on Wednesday, a further three men were detained at a separate address and were being held in the city. The first man was arrested in Heybarnes Road, in the Small Heath area of Birmingham, at 0430 BST on Wednesday, and later taken to London. A suspect device found with him is being examined and a controlled explosion is planned. His detention followed a joint operation between West Midlands Police and officers from the Metropolitan Police Anti-Terrorist Branch. The BBC's home affairs correspondent Daniel Sandford said a key question is whether the suspect will co-operate with police. Police will want to know where the other three men are, who was the mastermind behind the 21 July bombings, and - if they are linked to the 7 July bombings - who the mastermind was behind the first attack, our correspondent said. In exchange for such information, a suspect could expect a "discount" on any possible sentence, he said.

Following Army advice on the suspect package, residents of about 100 neighbouring homes were evacuated. A second address in Bankdale Road, in Ward End, Birmingham, was raided a little later, and three men were arrested under the Terrorism Act 2000. Forensic tests are taking place at both addresses in Birmingham.

Meanwhile, a flat in north London linked to two of the 21 July suspects is being searched, and police say chemicals found there and in a garage may have been intended for use in explosives. A resident living near the flat said she had seen one of the suspects outside her home on the day after the failed bombings. The Metropolitan Police chief Sir Ian Blair said those behind last week's attempted bombings could carry out another attack.

"They are capable of killing again," he told Channel Four News. "We must find them. We are flat out and we are getting a great deal of intelligence."
Police have linked Omar and Muktar Said Ibrahim, 27 - also known as Muktar Mohammed Said - to the flat in the 12-storey Curtis House, in Ladderswood Way, New Southgate. A white VW Golf, seized in nearby East Finchley on Tuesday, may have been used by one of the suspects, security sources said. Before Wednesday morning's arrests, five people had been held under anti-terror laws in connection with the inquiry.
None of them is thought to have been among the failed bombers.

Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:28 pm

Well we had a strange phone call yesterday at work.

Someone was asking if we could get spare parts or carried spare parts for a brand of portable heating and lighting equipment normally used within the camping and outdoor activity market.

The part was an ignitor and we said that we did have 2 or 3 on the shelf. This would amount to about a years worth of requests for such a part, so was ample as normally we only ever would get a request for the odd one each time.

Oh dear, came the reply, well how quickly could you get me 50 ?

50! ? What do you need 50 for ?

Well we put them into a housing on the end of a tube and fill a chamber with hairspray and then use the ignitor to fire it and launch a whole potato about 300 yards.

We duly gave him a price and told him seven to 10 days.

But consider the weight of a spud and it having enough force and acceleration initially to go 300 yards. These things they make are just like bazookas. The tube is about 3 inches in diameter and about 6 foot long.

It turns out these guys (half ex service men! ?) belong to this club and get together to knock the 5h!t out of each other with potatoes each weekend.

But the point is this. If a simple ignitor and hairspray can easily be bought together in harmony (I couldn't resist :lol: ) to produce that much power then it is frightening what slightly more sophisticated things could do without having to resort to conventional explosives.

Before anyone asks, yes I'm sure when using the hairspray powered bazooka that you do have to have an extra firm hold.

Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:37 pm

Steve -

You wrote:
....get together to knock the 5h!t out of each other with potatoes each weekend.


Well, I guess it takes all kinds...................

Doesn't sound much like fun to me !

Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:44 pm

Lets just stick to out catapaults Colin. Geez...even they're out lawed now :cry:

Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:29 am

I wrote [about the Brazillian shot by the UK police]:
The latest is that his family dispute this version of events.


An update:

His family claim that:

He was not an illegal immigrant.

He was not wearing a 'heavy' coat, just a denim jacket.

He didn't 'jump the ticket barrier' but used his travelcard.

Not sure how they know all this.

The policeman involved has been given paid leave while the incident is investigated.
Last edited by ColinB on Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:41 am

Steve_M wrote:
Scatter wrote:What can be ferreted out is the fact that I couldn't give a rat's ass if someone elses' ignorance of the facts caused their FEEEEELLLINGS to be hurt.


Maybe caring and giving of the ass might have prevented loss of life. But then again you are American and I understand the culture just as I try to understand other cultures.

I always thought it best when giving information that I should do so in a manner which could be understood by those listening. Failure of them to understand me would be my fault and my responsibility, not anything to do with them being ignorant. How is anyone else supposed to know what I mean if I don't say it clearly ?


Paralysis by analysis.....If I attempt to ascertain all the ways whatever I said could be misconstrued by anyone listening in any culture......nothing would get said.Or done. Maybe you enjoy living in this PC BS culture.......but I do not. Perhaps you should look up your comments on the EOT thread and re-read your monosyllabic post about how no one could understand your line of reasoning.If you truly believe that the onus is upon you to make everyone else understand.......why did you get your undies in a bunch over having to do it?? :lol:

Common sense and a little self-education go a loooooong way toward eliminating misunderstanding. If I desire to understand what is being said.......it is MY responsibility to ferret out the truth. Of course, it's much easier to demagogue.......

Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:13 pm

Don't be daft - I NEVER said I was successful at achieving it first time.

That's why I say the onus is on me, that's why i kept persisting in the other thread - that's why I KNOW that it's important to do it until it is right IF I really want people to understand me.

If I don't and I don't give a rats ass then maybe there will be differnet interpretations gleaned of what I've said - see the very thread you're referring to for evidence of this.

Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:01 pm

I've been following this thread for a while, thought it was about time i said something.

Without doubt the bombings are tragic - reading the obituries of the victims and the tributes in the paper each day really brings it home (http://www.guardian.co.uk).

I think all talk of immigrants and aliens is essentially moot - the perpetrators of the first attack were all British and the 2 identified so far from the second attacks are naturalised British citizens. The point is it is British citizens attacking other British citizens.

I think the whole muslim debate is essentially spurious - it's nothing to do with religion. The fact is some evil people are using the doctrine of islam to brainwash people to commit murder. Simple as that. When London was the target for the IRA bombing campaigns during the 1990s there was no debate around catholicism and any notion of a holy war. Also i don't think there was any backlash against the irish community - the largest minority in the UK. Is it because we 'understand' the catholic faith; not only do we not undersand islam, muslims look different.

The point is we must all unite against murderers and attempted murderers and defeat the evil that is attempting to subvert and corrupt others.

JMO

Andrew

Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:20 pm

Yes Andrew, quite.

I think we mentaly have done this, but it's how to extend that into our physical lives that remains a mystery.

What we are fighting is in the minds of others and can't be seen until it is too late.

Perhaps the real long term haul is to fight back using the same method and get into the minds and unbrainwash those who are also victims but who are turned into perpetrators.

When I look back and see billions of dollars and infinite man hours and lives plowed into fighting a cold war which was supposed to postpone a notion or realisation of WW3 only to find that it didn't lay in those two camps at all.
Is the current past 15 years or so the future of war in the world and considering the targets and nationalities involved, is it really a world war as well ?

Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:22 pm

Steve_M wrote:Don't be daft - I NEVER said I was successful at achieving it first time.

That's why I say the onus is on me, that's why i kept persisting in the other thread - that's why I KNOW that it's important to do it until it is right IF I really want people to understand me.

If I don't and I don't give a rats ass then maybe there will be differnet interpretations gleaned of what I've said - see the very thread you're referring to for evidence of this.


Daft?? DAFT??? DAFT AM I??? Why you blithering buffoon!!!!!! You doddering dolt!!!!! You insignificant ignoramus!!!!! (I'm rapidly running out of descriptives as archaic as daft.In fact I had to borrow that last one from Maurice.....feel free to jump in :lol: :wink: ).

Seriously......my point was simply that you cannot make yourself understood everywhere, in every culture, to every person, no matter how much you try. That, by necessity, places the onus directly upon the hearer. It is axiomatic that a communicant will always try to make himself clear to EVERYONE . But there are a thousand variables which render that task impossible to all men at all times.

When I read a newspaper (written at about an 8th grade reading level to appeal to the lowest common denominator ,and to make itself as clear as possible to as many as possible), and find a feature story for which there is insufficient context provided to inform me accurately........I must do the homework necessary to understand what is being conveyed. Absent that effort, I could just get aggravated and shoot off my mouth. Too much of that goes on already.

Much of what you are referring to as misunderstandings are simply attributable to those who have their own pre-conceived notions anyway, and for whom demagoguery is preferred over facts anyway.

There is responsibility on the shoulders of the speaker as well as the hearer. I'm just not willing to let the hearer shrug his off.

Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:16 pm

Scatter,

Daft is quite common in the UK. It's especially common in Northern England - i don't think any offence was meant.

Interesting points though

Andrew

Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:41 pm

Andrew, thanks for chiming in. I strongly disagree. Immigration, assimilation, border security, and yes, fanatical Islam are all key issues in both the USA and Europe.

It's truly small comfort that such a "citizen" (in the case of the Somalian, since he was 11) would do that to another "Brit."

We have to respect diversity to some extent, but nationhood and citizenship have devolved considerably. That's a problem.

And you don't have to be a right wing, exenophobe to admit that.

Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:38 pm

Greg,

i think you missed my point. The first 4 bombers were all British, as am i. The common thing was we were all born and grew up in Britain. The somalian guy obviously wasn't - but does have British citizenship. This is domestic terrorism - with an international angle.

Andrew