Off Topic Messages

Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:56 pm

Steve_M wrote:Again, it is not the innocent intent with which it is said, but the perception by others elsewhere.

Do they, for example in the East, take the possible litteral meaning to be one of America trying to have God all to themselves?


Steve.......it seems you are arguing just to argue . Your point is ill-conceived. People can ask God to bless their nation, or any other nation for whom they choose to intercede. I frankly don't give a flip if citizens of other countries ask God to bless them, since I don't believe that this excludes America from receiving a blessing. And I'm quite certain anyone with a modicum of common sense sees it that way as well.

The only way your perspective could be valid is if the song was written to say.....


God Bless America (alone)
Land that I love (exclusively)
Stand beside her (solely)
And guide her (and just her)
Through the night with the light from above (while all others remain in shadow)

HMMMMMMM........now that I see it written down.......that's damn catchy :wink:

Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:44 pm

Scatter -

So if this 'God' [or is it 'Gods'] that you speak of, bestows his/their 'blessing' on all countries, aren't things back to square one; with no country having any advantage out of the deal ?

All seems a bit of a waste of time & effort.

Or am I missing something ?

Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:53 pm

We could all sing If I Can Dream, that one should cover just about everyone that wants to recieve or give its message!

JEFF d
Elvis fan

Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:07 pm

Colin:

I'll tell you why. Here's how I see it. Supposing someone were to come to my front door and say I'm coming in whether you like it or not. By the way, he says, I don't like your carpet, and he proceeds to set fire to it. I like your TV, he continues, I'll have that. But your coffee table stinks, so he smashes it. He kills your goldfish because he hates them. How would that make you feel? I am proud of my house, right or wrong, whether it needs redecorating or not. And being proud of my country is exactly the same thing. It is not "blind" patriotism, I can see very well thank you very much, but patriotism nonetheless. I don't hate other countries, but I love my own. Neither do I hate other cultures, but I love my own. Patriotism is not the problem - lunatics are.

It seems so long ago but it was in fact only July 6 when London won the bid for the 2012 Olympics. How proud we all were then, especially since the victory involved beating the French. Indeed, the media was full of national pride, saying this rivalry with the French was only harmless because their President had slagged off our food. That day it was OK to be patriotic but the following day it wasn't? Many died in London that day and I would hate to think that their deaths were pointless as we all caved in to terror and said "These lunatic bombers must be right if they've gone to all that trouble to blow us up!" No thank you, I don't think this country is perfect but I will stand up, be counted and defend it - right or wrong. Any honest citizen of any country should do the same.

Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:51 pm

Stephen Butler wrote:Colin:

It seems so long ago but it was in fact only July 6 when London won the bid for the 2012 Olympics. How proud we all were then, especially since the victory involved beating the French. Indeed, the media was full of national pride, saying this rivalry with the French was only harmless because their President had slagged off our food. That day it was OK to be patriotic but the following day it wasn't? Many died in London that day and I would hate to think that their deaths were pointless as we all caved in to terror and said "These lunatic bombers must be right if they've gone to all that trouble to blow us up!" No thank you, I don't think this country is perfect but I will stand up, be counted and defend it - right or wrong. Any honest citizen of any country should do the same.


Everyone on this mb should take to heart Stephen's wise words. This is exactly the mindset that is necessary to defeat the homicidal maniac Jihadists. During WW-2 it was this very same mindset on the part of the British that prevented the Germans from conquering Britain.
It's a mindset that we all need to adopt!
Last edited by Pete Dube on Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:09 pm

Scatter wrote:
Steve_M wrote:Again, it is not the innocent intent with which it is said, but the perception by others elsewhere.

Do they, for example in the East, take the possible litteral meaning to be one of America trying to have God all to themselves?


Steve.......it seems you are arguing just to argue . Your point is ill-conceived. People can ask God to bless their nation, or any other nation for whom they choose to intercede. I frankly don't give a flip if citizens of other countries ask God to bless them, since I don't believe that this excludes America from receiving a blessing. And I'm quite certain anyone with a modicum of common sense sees it that way as well.

The only way your perspective could be valid is if the song was written to say.....


God Bless America (alone)
Land that I love (exclusively)
Stand beside her (solely)
And guide her (and just her)
Through the night with the light from above (while all others remain in shadow)

HMMMMMMM........now that I see it written down.......that's damn catchy :wink:


Eh ? Arguing for the sake of......you've got me there. How is asking a question trying to have an argument or trying to put forward an argument for the sake of anything ? I just wanted to see what others thought of the possibility.

I just think there might be a case for people having that perception - YES ! Wrongly I agree, but never-the-less I was asking if it could be possible that that's how they might interpet that well know saying / phrase which is repeasted in all innocence by Americans but taken to a literal other meaning buy others who don't fully understand traditional sayings and phrases but have only really started to learn english as a language and as is the case with such a complex language things are taken to litterally or misinterpreted by many people.

What does the phrase / saying really portray anyway ? A request or a demand ?

Please God, bless this country ?
or
God, bless America because we just told you to ?

I know what it intends, you know and so do 100% of people on here and in all English speaking countries.

It's the others I'm asking about who are always finding other meaning in things.

Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:25 pm

Babes.. relax..when they again, or once again have this problem on their doorstep.. tell us how we should react

Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:33 am

Stephen -

Well, yes, I did feel kinda proud when that 2012 Olympic announcement was made.

But being proud of the UK for those sort of achievements is OK in my book.

Being proud of a country for bombing & killing innocent civilians is another matter entirely.

Pete -

I don't need reminding about WWII.

I lived through part of it, unlike most of you young bloods on here.

Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:13 pm

Eh ? Arguing for the sake of......you've got me there. How is asking a question trying to have an argument or trying to put forward an argument for the sake of anything ? I just wanted to see what others thought of the possibility.

I just think there might be a case for people having that perception - YES ! Wrongly I agree, but never-the-less I was asking if it could be possible that that's how they might interpet that well know saying / phrase which is repeasted in all innocence by Americans but taken to a literal other meaning buy others who don't fully understand traditional sayings and phrases but have only really started to learn english as a language and as is the case with such a complex language things are taken to litterally or misinterpreted by many people.

What does the phrase / saying really portray anyway ? A request or a demand ?

Please God, bless this country ?
or
God, bless America because we just told you to ?

I know what it intends, you know and so do 100% of people on here and in all English speaking countries.

It's the others I'm asking about who are always finding other meaning in things.[/quote]

You always know you're in trouble when Steve_M begins a response with "Eh?" :lol:

Thanks for clarifying your point Steve. But frankly, I THINK we place altogether too much emphasis upon how people FEEEEEELLLLL.

Very seldom is anyone asked anymore what one THINKS. The question is nearly invariably,"How do you FEEEEELLLL about this? " How do you FEEEEEELLL about that?". Screw that.

It's another invasion of PC anti-intellectualism where the facts and common sense become subjugated to irrational emotionalism. God forbid someone's FEEEEEELLLings should get hurt :roll: .

We had a public official here run out of office because he referred to the government's spending poliicies toward a public aid program as "niggardly", or cheap.

Well, the black community went berserk!!!! The groundswell of hysteria drove the man from office. BTW, it made no difference to the moronic masses or leadership when the correct definition was given, and it was a policy point the black leadership had made themselves with different wording. No, all that mattered was that the word SOUNDED like a slur, and had hurt their FEEEEEELLLINGS.

Common sense and truth need not apply. FEEEELLLINGS reign supreme. It's positively nauseating. So, if someone becomes offended and has their FEEEEELLLINGS hurt in a case like this, my response is to investigate and THINK and stop using FEEEEELLLINGS as the directing force of life.

Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:26 pm

ColinB wrote:Scatter -

So if this 'God' [or is it 'Gods'] that you speak of, bestows his/their 'blessing' on all countries, aren't things back to square one; with no country having any advantage out of the deal ?

All seems a bit of a waste of time & effort.

Or am I missing something ?


Yes, Colin....you are. It's not a contest, where I attempt to get my country more blessed than country X,Y,orZ. It's a responsibility I have been given by God to seek His blessing upon the country where He chose for me to live. I also have a responsibility to pray for all countries and people as well. But just as it's true that I have a special responsibility in regards to care for my own family, so I have as well toward my own country.

Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:35 pm

A couple of years ago the (then) Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police (Sir John Stevens) as part of his force's current drive to reduce violent crime in the capital, made the statement that 80% of muggings in London are committed by young, black men! He then went on to explain what the community as a whole could do to resolve this.

Well, he may as well have been hung, drawn and quartered!

God forbid someone identifies a problem and attempts to address it! Fool! Nah, we'll just ignore it shall we and it will go away.

FEEEEEELLLings......nothing more than FEEEEEELLLings.....

Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:40 pm

to seek His blessing upon the country where He chose for me to live


If you move abroad are you breaking the will of God for you to live where He chose?

So after all the above, do I ferret amongst that and find that you think (or feeeeeeeellll) that it is possible that some people in some parts of the world are finding unintended meaning in what we regard as traditional phrases ?

and what about people who THINK they Feeeeeeelllllll a certain way ? :lol:

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:13 pm

ColinB wrote:Stephen -

Well, yes, I did feel kinda proud when that 2012 Olympic announcement was made.

But being proud of the UK for those sort of achievements is OK in my book.

Being proud of a country for bombing & killing innocent civilians is another matter entirely.

Pete -

I don't need reminding about WWII.

I lived through part of it, unlike most of you young bloods on here.


Colin -
Regarding you're 'bombing & killing innocent civilians' statement the difference between us and the jihadists is that we're not deliberately targeting those innocent civilians. The jihadists are. But I can agree with you that the loss of those lives as unintentional casualties of war is tragic. I'm certainly not proud of any such loss of life. Thats said, I don't think we should just sit back and let the jihadists 'terrorize' us into submission. You have suggested, using the Irish situation as an example, that bringing these guys to the negotiation table is the way to deal with them, but what you're failing to recognize is that the jihadists are simply not interested in negotiation. The Irish model cannot be applied across the board.

The point of my Britain/WW-2 statement wasn't so much to 'remind' you or anyone else about the war, but to illustrate the mindset, the sheer resolve it took on the part of your countrymen to keep the Germans from conquering your country. It's this very same mindset the west will need to overcome the jihadists. Sadly, it appears much of the west is unwilling or unable to adopt this mindset.

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:34 pm

Pete -

You wrote:
But I can agree with you that the loss of those lives as unintentional casualties of war is tragic.


Tragic ?

I thought the US phrase was 'collateral damage'.

You also wrote:
It's this very same mindset the west will need to overcome the jihadists.


Well, yes, OK, I agree that the bombers need catching and punishing whoever they are.

But there is a dangerous tendency in the UK tabloids, and some sections of the population, which condemns all Muslims.

We've already had mosques fire-bombed, and even some Muslim homes.

It is that mind-set which I am fearful of.

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:37 pm

ColinB wrote:Stephen -

Well, yes, I did feel kinda proud when that 2012 Olympic announcement was made.

But being proud of the UK for those sort of achievements is OK in my book.

Being proud of a country for bombing & killing innocent civilians is another matter entirely.


Colin:

For a moment there, I thought you were holding this country responsible for the bombings and killings in London. But that can't be right...can it?

I think you missed my point slightly too. It was not that the British media was displaying pride at winning the Olympic bid that was the issue, but the manner in which that pride was displayed by them, the kind of nationalistic wahey we beat the French that'll teach them for slagging off our food kind of pride that was OK one day and suddenly not ok the next.

And I am not proud of this country because it bombed innocent civilians in London, I am proud of this country in spite of it. Four knobheads who happened to have been born in this country did it, in support of an ideology that was most definitely not British.

I am also categorically not in support of negotiating with these morons in any way, on any level. First of all there is no evidence that pandering to the IRA has worked. The bombings and murders may have stopped - for now, but there are still cells out there and Gerry Adams must think the British public have all crawled out from under a ***ing stone if he thinks we believe for one moment his empty and vacuous pleas for the IRA to lay down its arms.

Anyone who knows me on this board will testify that, wherever possible, I always try to look for good in people and would love it if we could avoid war at all costs. Sadly, however, in this day and age military might is essential, and never more so than now. Why in the blue hell do we have an army - so they can sit around on their arses all day while the politicians invite the Islamic Jihadists to dinner and a game of Trivial Pursuit?

Being proud of one's heritage and nationality is a matter of choice, but to give that up because a bunch of dicks too stupid to form opinions of their own, and brainwashed by madmen tell us to is so anathema to me it's insulting. And yes, Steve_M, if you move abroad God could still bless your home country or new country as much as you choose. It's that easy. Saying God Bless ______ (fill in the blank) is not about one country trying to gain an advantage over another, or to be more blessed than another. God can bless every single country on this Earth the same for all I care, but be proud of your own country - why not? If you don't, I repeat, the terrorists win.

Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:56 pm

Stephen -

You wrote:
Colin:
For a moment there, I thought you were holding this country responsible for the bombings and killings in London. But that can't be right...can it?


No.

I was thinking of the UK involvement in Iraq.

Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:07 pm

I cannot believe how people think that way.

So it isn't the terrorists/murderers whose sole goal is to kill innocents, but it is the UK for supporting the U.S. for the war in Iraq??? How much does it take Colin?

It is the suicide bombers who want nothing, but to hurt regular people that are at fault! If they wanted so much to claim their own kind of justice why did they not attack something more strategic???

Because they are f*cking cowards thats why and it is precisely why I support the war.

If UK pulls out then they have won. Do you think 9/11 wouldn't have come your way eventually? THINK AGAIN.

Mon Jul 25, 2005 8:28 pm

genesim -

You wrote:
So it isn't the terrorists/murderers whose sole goal is to kill innocents, but it is the UK for supporting the U.S. for the war in Iraq??? How much does it take Colin?


Thousands of innocent civilians were killed in Iraq.

That has sown the seeds for more terrorists [as we've seen].

And it wasn't even the Iraqis who were responsible for 9/11.

If a terrorist bombs & kills, then track him down & punish him.

Careless bombing of civilians in retalliation doesn't help anyone.

Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:20 pm

Steve_M wrote:
to seek His blessing upon the country where He chose for me to live


If you move abroad are you breaking the will of God for you to live where He chose?

It's possible........like if I were to move anywhere without pizza. God would never do that to me :wink:

So after all the above, do I ferret amongst that and find that you think (or feeeeeeeellll) that it is possible that some people in some parts of the world are finding unintended meaning in what we regard as traditional phrases ?

What can be ferreted out is the fact that I couldn't give a rat's ass if someone elses' ignorance of the facts caused their FEEEEELLLINGS to be hurt. They need to THINK.And if they are unwilling to find the facts before they react emotionally,they need to shut the hell up because the world doesn't owe them an offense free existense.

and what about people who THINK they Feeeeeeelllllll a certain way ? :lol:


I THINK I'll have to explore my FEEEEEELLLINGS about that and get back to you :lol:

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:30 am

Careless bombing of civilians in retalliation doesn't help anyone.


Colin, are you saying that we do nothing but go around and kill innocents at will? If that were true don't you think the casualty numbers would be alot higher? What do you say about the daily bombings of innocents in Iraq by our enemies? When is the last time you read about the UK or US on a suicide mission to slam some bomb activated vehicle into a crowd just to see how many innocent people will die??

What do you do if a government houses such terrorists? It has never been proven that the Iraq governement was not responsible for 9/11. As it stands this was still a coward attack that is in the same vein. Who do you blame...THE UK????

Here is a quote woult this be a place for you to start??:

...consider the facts presented in Stephen F. Hayes's book,
The Connection : How al Qaeda's Collaboration with Saddam Hussein Has
Endangered America (N.Y.: HarperCollins, 2004). The first paragraph of
the last chapter (pp. 177-78) sums up some of the evidence:

Iraqi intelligence documents from 1992 list Osama bin Laden as an
Iraqi intelligence asset. Numerous sources have reported a 1993
nonaggression pact between Iraq and al Qaeda. The former deputy
director of Iraqi intelligence now in U.S. custody says that bin Laden
asked the Iraqi regime for arms and training in a face-to-face meeting
in 1994. Senior al Qaeda leader Abu Hajer al Iraqi met with Iraqi
intelligence officials in 1995. The National Security Agency
intercepted telephone conversations between al Qaeda-supported Sudanese
military officials and the head of Iraq's chemical weapons program in
1996. Al Qaeda sent Abu Abdallah al Iraqi to Iraq for help with weapons
of mass destruction in 1997. An indictment from the Clinton-era Justice
Department cited Iraqi assistance on al Qaeda "weapons development" in
1998. A senior Clinton administration counterterrorism official told
the Washington Post that the U.S. government was "sure" Iraq had
supported al Qaeda chemical weapons programs in 1999. An Iraqi working
closely with the Iraqi embassy in Kuala Lumpur was photographed with
September 11 hijacker Khalid al Mihdhar en route to a planning meeting
for the bombing of the USS Cole and the September 11 attacks in 2000.
Satellite photographs showed al Qaeda members in 2001 traveling en
masse to a compound in northern Iraq financed, in part, by the Iraqi
regime. Abu Musab al Zarqawi, senior al Qaeda associate, operated
openly in Baghdad and received medical attention at a regime-supported
hospital in 2002. Documents discovered in postwar Iraq in 2003 reveal
that Saddam's regime harbored and supported Abdul Rahman Yasin, an
Iraqi who mixed the chemicals for the 1993 World Trade Center attack...

Here is another so link that criticizes the so called Commision report:

http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/ ... 170840.asp

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:35 am

Gene.........are you really going to resort to the facts?? :lol:

Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:46 am

You know what gets me, the logic in the commission report is that ...YES al Qaeda and Iraq do have several links...and they have worked together but we cannot find specific intentions for something like 9/11. :roll:

What the hell are they looking for a sign stating such??? It is clear that governments have been very good at hiding information. It is like the WMD arguement. Duh...we didn't find any, so there must not have been any! Yeah right..meanwhile we should ignore a leader that kicks out UN inspectors at gunpoint!!

The facts are that the recent UK bombing is proof enough as to who are enemies are and how they will stop at nothing to rob people of their freedom.

Again, GEE, it sure is terrible that the bad ol USA and UK want people to choose their leaders as opposed to keeping up the hundreds of thousands murdered before. Where was the criticism then?

Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:26 am

genesim -

You wrote:
Colin, are you saying that we do nothing but go around and kill innocents at will?


No, and you know I didn't.

Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:50 pm

Again perhaps it is this statement that bothers me.

Careless bombing of civilians in retalliation doesn't help anyone.


The American and British soldiers that have fought and died are not just doing it for fun or money, I don't care how much the media spins it. BUT to suggest that we are bombing civilians carelessly is a slap in the face anyway you look at it. I am sure there are very few soldiers that truly enjoy what they are doing and I don't want to even think what they are going throuh.

We are fighting a common enemy there, this is not like France's war with Vietnam. With the bombing of London I would think that this would be a little more personal.

Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:02 pm

Scatter wrote:What can be ferreted out is the fact that I couldn't give a rat's ass if someone elses' ignorance of the facts caused their FEEEEELLLINGS to be hurt.


Maybe caring and giving of the ass might have prevented loss of life. But then again you are American and I understand the culture just as I try to understand other cultures.

I always thought it best when giving information that I should do so in a manner which could be understood by those listening. Failure of them to understand me would be my fault and my responsibility, not anything to do with them being ignorant. How is anyone else supposed to know what I mean if I don't say it clearly ?