Off Topic Messages

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith

Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:33 pm

Okay, let's try this again.


Of the 3 prequels, this one was worth the wait to see this portion of the tragic story.

Kudos to Lucas for a killer film.

I predict ian McDiarmid will get a Best Supporting Actor Oscar nomination

Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:58 pm

I hope they find that post because I put alot of writing into it.

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:18 pm

GG:

I seem to remember in that post you listed your preferences for the six films in their order. Perhaps you could repost this. For what it's worth, here is mine, purely based on hindsight really, rather than analysing their impact at the time:

1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Revenge of the Sith
4. Return of the Jedi
5. The Phantom Menace
6. Attack of the Clones

To be honest the last two are interchangeable depending on my mood, but at the moment I keep thinking of the classic pod race and one of my all-time favourite Star Wars lines which is in The Phantom Menace:

"I don't care what universe you're from - that's got to hurt!"

Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:35 pm

My list is identical to yours with the exception of Star Wars-A New Hope at #1.

Sorry, but not only is it the most entertaining, but it is also the only one that can stand on its own. Still each to their own and I certainly love Empire as well.

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:13 pm

I will have to wait a while and see if I would put "Revenge" above "Return" even though I like it very much. The ending of "Return" makes the whole series complete! I go back and forth between Ep IV & V to which I like best. I agree Ep IV is more of a complete story, but Ep V is also a more complicated story. I def like "Attack of the Clones" more than "Phantom Menace" though. Hey they are all good I like them all! lol

On a side note I bought the DVD of "Star Wars Ewok Adventures", now when in the heck is this supposed to take place in the time line? I think its after "Return Of The Jedi" but Im not sure. It could also be before "Jedi" I guess.

JEFF d
Elvis fan

Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:34 pm

Hey everybody!

Stephen, thanks for the rank reminder.
It's been a while but to refresh my thoughts on that,
ranking them based on quality of "best" story and cast and on-screen events,

1. A New Hope - the plain ol' original one ('78 Best Picture nominee)
A deleted scene of Luke and his friends on Tatooine never made the final cut, but IMO, the recent addition of Jabba scene does not work. It looks fake and unbelievable how they cram a fat Jabba in the space of a portly man beside Harrison Ford. I know Lucas and ILM pat themselves on the back for $4M cgi work done on the 1997 special edition but I cringe at the "forced" depth perception there which doesn't work.

2. Empire Strikes Back - THIS was worth the wait between '77-80 - this was the "white album" of movies. The "Elvis Is Back" of films. The anticipation was incredible for this one. And it delivered. Irvin Kershner, Lucas' 1960s film school instructor, directed this and it's nearly flawless. (Continuity with IV is marred by Hamill's new face due to real-life car wreck)

3. Revenge Of The Sith - I rank this high since I was impressed by one immensely. Seen it 4 times so far. I like the humor and comic relief provided by R2. I respect the old aging Obi-Wan alot more after the performance Ewan has done. He's excellent. My favorite human Jedi by far.
And when those spooky shadowy mind-twisting elements begin, The Chancellor is awesome. Knowing that he's the Emporer of VI, and he's the "phantom menace" of I, I've been waiting for 3 prequels now to see this guy finally show his ''true self'' and unleash the Dark Side. Oscar Nom for the actor please.

4. Attack of the Clones
- Natalie Portman (mmmm) and the Jango vs Kenobi Fight makes this one really stand out to me. I applaud the inclusion, finally, of another Hammer Horror alumni Christopher Lee. I just wish the Geonosis arena battle/clone war was set at night, with starry skies overhead. And wish that "Jedi Master Sypho-Dios" who placed the order for clones, then was killed, had been better explained. III doesn't explain that either.

5. Return of the Jedi
Vader is big and bad; The Emporer is scary and creepy
The space battles of Falcon and X-wings and TIE fighters is lightyears beyond the scope of the original film
- Kasdan's script for this is where I find fault.
The dialogue twix Luke and Leia when discussing family revelations could have been written better. (Vader is Leia's father too? The man who tortured her on the Death Star?! That's her real dad!) - the Leia vs Vader relationship introduced in IV is never addressed again after IV.
And the fact that Luke, a self-professed "powerful" jedi, can't detect Leia who's missing in the forest nor sense her presence merely 10 feet away in a treehouse.
(Kasdan did a good job on ESB script, and a great job on Raiders of the Lost Ark script, but I think ROTJ is his weakest and more lackadasical (sp?) screenwriting effort)

6. The Phantom Menace
- well, the story had to start somewhere.
This film is about the shenanigans that made Senator Palpatine the next chancellor as much as it was about the Jedi finding a boy strong with the Force.
Having Anakin introduced as a kid character makes sense because finally after all these years, a kid appears on screen in the ultimate kid's franchise - a Star Wars film. Made sense.
Plus Darth Maul and "Duel of the Fates" music rocked.


------- That being said, I think there's room for at least one more film.
To occur 10 years after III, and ten years prior to IV,
but of course, what episode # .... 3.5 ?

When you have characters who wear helmets covering their faces (Darth, Threepio, R2, Boba Fett, and Jabba even) and who rely upon voice-overs, you can keep making movies about them for centuries to come.

50 years from now there may be a new movie with Vader and Boba etc, and tho the voice-overs may be a new person talking (or be archived recordings by James Earl Jones unused dialogue thus far) voila, a brand new Vader movie....light years from now.

Lucas has potential to make more. Sit down those actors to record dialogue, record alot of additional dialogue, then use it sometime in the future. In fact, Vader and C3PO could have totally new lines recorded to overdub on the old films. Possibilities are nearly endless.

In IV, when Vader says: "There'll be no one to stop us this time"
which imo, is a corny generic movie serial line,
that could be replaced with a new line in that timelength.
A line more suitable to the storyline>
such as:
Vader says, "The rebellion must never get the designs of our ultimate weapon!"

a better line and relevent to the story.
I suggest replace the cliche lines Vader was given, and have him say new lines. Dialogue more pertinent to the story and his character.
Comments?

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:29 pm

I just wish they came up with a better title than Revenge of the Sith. Thounths like I'm lithping. Say it out loud in public and folks will think you're a bit light on your feet - if you catch my meaning.

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:34 pm

Sith happens.

are you gonna start this sith again.

:lol:

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:15 am

Graceland Gardener wrote:
And wish that "Jedi Master Sypho-Dios" who placed the order for clones, then was killed, had been better explained. III doesn't explain that either.


Well GG, maybe they should've done a film called Revenge of the Syph!

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:17 am

Ok I completely agree about the added Jabba scene..but then again you comparing it to the old Star Wars movie minus the other movies.

Here are facts, Jabba was fat slug that got lucky. He could only catch Han when GIVEN to him by Darth.

Also the bad CGI was rectified with the 2004 editions.

For those that actually take the time to see the new editions and have a good surround sound system that has 6 channel sound, I don't believe you will ever go back...especially when compared with the other movies.

Star Wars while a great movie was dated beyond belief. George Lucas was penalized because of one thing...he didn't have enough money. In the Phantom Menace commentary he says that he wouldn't ALLOW himself to imagine certain things because of money stipulations. Well folks that is just plain crazy!

Also, who the hell wants the bug eyed Emperor in Empire Strikes Back??? That truly didn't fit with the new idea at all. Other things are the stagnate Dinasours(I forgot name) that the Stormtroopers rode and the bad special effects in Cloud City. Matter of fact Lucas fixed alot of things we can't see like bad matting because of daylight issues. etc. etc.

I truly applaud the hard work put into the new editions and like I have said before, all the movies have their problems(Special or not).

XXXx

A side note. Though Star Wars at first seems to have a less complicated story, when comparing to the rest of the movies it is the true anchor of the series. Empire for all it is has one problem......as cool as Han is, his romance with Leah has very little to do with the big picture. I agree it is a great film, but in the grand scheme, most of the story line is a distraction.

No don't shoot me just yet.....Yoda, Luke, Father, Son...yes I don't need a rehash. They are clearly important plot lines, I am just speaking of nitpicking issues that make it weaker then Star Wars.

Music, Acting(especially when speaking of Alec), story....all put together make it the best IMO and obviously alot of others agree seeing it is the second biggest money maker of all time(when you factor in inflation) behind Gone With The Wind.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXxx

Incidently the title Revenge Of The Sith refers to who??? It isn't Darth...So is it Darth Sidious...well shouldn't there be another face on that poster?

Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:59 am

PS Welcome back Genesim.

We meet again at last....
:twisted:

genesim wrote:Also, who the hell wants the bug eyed Emperor in Empire Strikes Back??? That truly didn't fit with the new idea at all. Other things are the stagnate Dinasours(I forgot name) that the Stormtroopers rode and the bad special effects in Cloud City. Matter of fact Lucas fixed alot of things we can't see like bad matting because of daylight issues. etc. etc.

Incidently the title Revenge Of The Sith refers to who??? It isn't Darth...So is it Darth Sidious...well shouldn't there be another face on that poster?


ESB - I agree the bug-eyed Emporer (played by Clive Revil) hologram be removed and replaced by hologram Ian McDiarmid as the Emporer.
-- and give he and Vader more lines there!

Ian and JEJ could cut additional lines next week and thus make that important scene longer and more dramatic.
Use same camera angle on Vader, repeat that shot as often as you want - who can tell, and overdub with different lines.
The process works.
Plus show Ian in his black hood and saying the original lines or perhaps have completely new lines regarding their "new enemy...Luke Skywalker...the Son of Skywalker...."

They could have a disagreement about what to do concerning him.
The possibilities are endless on what Emporer could say to Vader there, and vice versa.

With voice-overs and cgi tech there's alot of potential there to extend that bow-down-before-the-hologram scene.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

IV - Lucas may add a scene of the Imperial Senate Dome when the Emporer kills all the Senators. (By the Force? Or Stormtroopers?)
That tragedy is exactly what Gov. Tarkin refers to when he says "I've just received word the Emporer has dissolved the council permanently." = meaning mass murder of senators.
Having the completed Death Star now gave Emp more arrogance to destroy the concept of a Senate and be the lone authority.

Note: a new elephant/dinosaur passing by when stromtroopers stop the landspeeder to ask about the droids "these aren't the droids you're looking for" Yes, the bumpy grey hide looks real - ooh wow - is that a real dinosaur? - but that doesn't work due to that factor of forced depth perception. The '97 dino/elephant added blocks out a couple '76 droids passing by in that cgi maneuever - why? Only Lucas only. I think ILM plays around too much and add crap just becasue they can.

-------

genesim wrote:as cool as Han is, his romance with Leah has very little to do with the big picture. I agree it is a great film, but in the grand scheme, most of the story line is a distraction.


re: Han and Leia romance. I originally figured the big picture of them falling in love would culminate in a wedding!
I assumed that the finale of ROTJ would be a wedding scene.
Han marries Leia; Luke is "minister" - I thought that's the natural closure of their relationship. I thought that was why Han survives the carbon freezing thing - to marry the Princess at the end of it all.
But that didn't happen.
Instead the finale is what Harrison Ford calls: "a teddy bear picnic"

Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:25 pm

Though I truly scoff at the wedding....I actually like the concept of the Senate!

Seriously, I think he should be done, but there are in fact, his movies. He owns the copyrights and so they are his property.

There is a point I would stop buying, but damn the movies are so great it would be hard not too. I am sure a overhaul of Episode I would be very cool.

As far as the big dinasaur thing...I think it was to cover up how fake the Landspeeder looked coming in. I am glad they touched it up more from the 97 editions.

Right there is a perfect example of how Lucas IMPROVED Star Wars. The CGI helped that city actually look like one!

Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:25 am

Hello folks.

I dont really like Episode I and 2 all that much.
but i do like Episode 3 Revenge of the Sith.

and then i like the new hope, and Return of the Jedi .

so 3 out of 6 flims not all that bad. 8)

Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:27 pm

Here's a question for you all: a friend of mine pointed out that A New Hope was the only film of the six not to include John Williams' Imperial March (presumably due to the fact it was written for The Empire Strikes Back). He reckons it should be re-released to include this music. Whaddaya think?

Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:33 pm

Stephen Butler wrote:Here's a question for you all: a friend of mine pointed out that A New Hope was the only film of the six not to include John Williams' Imperial March (presumably due to the fact it was written for The Empire Strikes Back). He reckons it should be re-released to include this music. Whaddaya think?


I think it should be added.
In a subtle usage.

The ominous notes are only a matter of 3 or 4 seconds to sound off.

There are a few scenes where it could apply.

Mostly to the scene when Obi-Wan sees Vader standing there in the corridor, with red saber ready.
As I recall, there's no music there as it is.

Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:54 pm

Hey, I pointed that out on this very board!

Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:03 am

Continuity question:

How does Lucas reconcile this-In TESB, as Luke is leaving Dagobah to go to Cloud City, Obi-Wan says "That boy was our last hope." Yoda responds, "No. There is another."(meaning Leia, as revealed in ROTJ). Yet in ROTS, Obi-Wan is present at the birth of both Luke and Leia! If this glaring mistake was somehow explained away toward the end of ROTS then I missed it.

Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:56 am

When there was only 1 Star Wars movie in existence, we had a tendency to believe Ben Kenobi when he said he was a Jedi teacher and one of his pupils named Darth Vader betrayed.....

But - due to the existence of these I,II,III prequels,
the dialogue in the original film has complications.

We now discover, much to our chagrin, that IV Kenobi is for lack of a better word...a liar. He out-n-out lies to Luke.
Vader was not a Jedi pupil. Uncle Owen had no comment about Anakin getting "involved" in the "clone wars"
and Luke's father never said he wanted Luke to have that lightsaber. Kenobi could remember R2 but pretended he didn't recognize that droid.

I think Ben Kenobi relyed upon Luke's naivety to convince him of 3 things.

1. Become a Jedi like your dead father who was a great Jedi.

2. Your uncle does not approve so all the more reason to do it anyway

3. Learn to handle this ancient weapon (because Luke will someday have to duel Vader)


Otherwise, the best scene in IV making reference to III:

Aunt: Luke's just not a farmer Owen. He has too much of his father in him.

Uncle: That's what I'm afraid of.


--- that scene means so much more now.

Of course Uncle Owen knows that Anakin went bad and became Vader. Kenobi probably told him when preparing to bring infant Luke to them. But Owen hopes that if the subject never comes up, and Luke is ignorant and remains here as a farmer, all will be well and they be safe like they have been for the past 19-20 years.

Rich Holt wrote:Continuity question:

How does Lucas reconcile this-In TESB, as Luke is leaving Dagobah to go to Cloud City, Obi-Wan says "That boy was our last hope." Yoda responds, "No. There is another."(meaning Leia, as revealed in ROTJ). Yet in ROTS, Obi-Wan is present at the birth of both Luke and Leia! If this glaring mistake was somehow explained away toward the end of ROTS then I missed it.


Well, even tho he always knew Luke had a sister, Obi-Wan may have not considered Leia a vessel of the Force, maybe never detected her potential.
But Yoda did.

-----
another continuity issue:
R2-D2 always knew/remembered everything that happened (unlike C-3PO who got his mind wiped at end of III)
but R2 never beeped-told Luke anything? Nothing about Anakin or Padme, or even recognized Yoda when arriving at Dagobah? (Remember that silly squabble with Yoda over a flashlight - "mine! mine!") Seems that R2, having all his data intact, would react to Yoda's presence with "respect" and "politeness" despite Yoda acting senile to test luke's patience.

Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:11 am

G G -

Sequels often throw up anomalies which never existed in the originals.

One example is 2001 & 2010.

In 2001 the HAL computer goes off the rails because he is afraid they are going to turn him off.

Nobody ever explained to him that he could be turned on again !

But in 2010 the story is that his problems arose out of his being ordered to lie, after having been programmed to tell the truth.

Another is in the Halloween series, where the Jamie Lee Curtis character turns out to be Michael's sister, something not envisaged in the original film.

Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:09 pm

Colin -
In the prologue to the original Halloween wasn't there an infant shown briefly? I haven't seen the film in years, but I thought that in the sequence with the child Michael killing his older sister (or was she just a babysitter?) an infant was shown.

Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:22 pm

Pete, if I may reply

there's no infant in the original Halloween (but there is a palm tree)

Yet there is an infant in Halloween 6.

It's Michael Myer's own offspring!

Mothered by Jamie, the girl in 4 & 5
(she was kidnapped at end of 5 by the tattoo-wrist man in black trenchcoat - and she's kept strapped down in an underground facility near haddonfield by a Druid cult dabbling in genetic experiments who syphon sperm from Myers to make a child, and they're keeping him too underground except on 10/31 when they let him out to roam free to kill - but not every year - only when a certain "druid" star constellation* is in the sky - a constellation shaped like the wrist tattoo)
* this explains why he doesn't kill on Groundhog Day or Easter etc - it's an exclusive October 31st thing.

At the start of 6, Jamie escapes with the baby and Michael searches for them. Meanwhile a new family has moved into the old cursed Myers House. Dr. Loomis, making his final appearance in the franchise, is summoned back into service by listening to call-in talk radio.

The ultimate goal is save the baby from Michael's clutches.

seriously.

That film has a twisted storyline.
AMC never shows it. TV in general never shows it.

The guy who played Cher's brother in Clueless movie is in it.
But doesn't have original Jamie actress - Danielle Harris. They didn't let her come back for a third.

This musta went straight to video. I had to rent it to even see it myself.

Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:14 pm

GG -
I freely admit that I'm a bit warped, but your post brings up a burning question: Just how was Michael Myers aroused so they could syphon his sperm? Did they have him wack-off to a 'slayboy' magazine? :oops: :lol:

Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:41 pm

You guys kill me.

As far as the part where Obi says that boy was our last hope...what we fail to see is the fact that George took out some footage....Yoda looking at him much in the same way that Archie looked at Edith 101 times. George felt this didn't go along with his character...so it was edited out before the premiere.

The facts are that maybe Ben wasn't up to snuff in the mind department, but like Ronnie of the 80's still a bad ass none the less.


Incidently why is it only C3PO that gets his mind wiped??? Where was the evidence of that???

Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:41 pm

Jimmy Smits, at end of III, tells Capt. Antilles to have the protocol droid's mind wiped. Then R2 laughs at him.

It's a very short scene.


In IV - Threepio has no clue what planet he is on.

R2 clearly knows which direction to go in the desert and he has a secret mission.

Threepio ignorantly says, "What mission? ...What plans? ...What makes you think there are settlements over there?"

See? 3po :wink:

Because R2 knows essentially how and where to track down Kenobi, he wants that restraining bolt removed so to sneak away from Luke's farm.

Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:56 pm

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