Off Topic Messages

Re: and now it really begins ...

Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:49 am

Gillybee on Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:30 pm wrote:
The dominos begin to fall, barely a year since the U.S. election.

Our democracy is holding tight against all enemies, foreign and domestic

I admire your optimism, but the problem is much more deep-seated than just ridding yourselves of Trump/Putin.

The passage through the Senate yesterday of sweeping tax cuts for the 1% and a few crumbs for everyone else, is a reminder of the catastrophic 'Citizens vs United' decision by the Supreme Court in 2011 that allowed the U.S political system to be utterly swamped by corporate money in an unprecedented fashion. That I humbly suggest (as someone who lived in & loved my time in the U.S during the far-off 1980s) is your real enemy! Although Trump of course is a very real symptom of the sickness that afflicts the West today.

Far from "draining the swamp", the swamp just got bigger and ordinary Americans are going to find themselves paying more for basic services that used to be covered by Federal and State government budgets - to say nothing of a State Department gutted - is truly terrifying for the loss of institutional knowledge, and everything that that entails.

Here in New Zealand, we just got rid of crony capitalism after 30 long, long years, but by God, the right - backed by wealthy corporate interests - are taking a leaf out of the Republican play-book by making the ride as rough as possible and attempting to trash established conventions and the institutions that provide stability. That's why those of us who live outside the U.S take an interest in your political affairs - it's like looking into the future.

I wish you all the best.



The tax bill is horrific, just awful for poor and middle-income families. The Republican Party can never again position themselves as the party of "fiscal responsibility" and it's another example of how far they have fallen.

But the Mueller investigation has now become historic in nature, and we may all remember December 1, 2017 as the date it all began.

All the best to NZ from CA.

Re: and now it really begins ...

Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:12 am

drjohncarpenter on Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:49 pm wrote:
Gillybee on Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:30 pm wrote:
The dominos begin to fall, barely a year since the U.S. election.

Our democracy is holding tight against all enemies, foreign and domestic

I admire your optimism, but the problem is much more deep-seated than just ridding yourselves of Trump/Putin.

The passage through the Senate yesterday of sweeping tax cuts for the 1% and a few crumbs for everyone else, is a reminder of the catastrophic 'Citizens vs United' decision by the Supreme Court in 2011 that allowed the U.S political system to be utterly swamped by corporate money in an unprecedented fashion. That I humbly suggest (as someone who lived in & loved my time in the U.S during the far-off 1980s) is your real enemy! Although Trump of course is a very real symptom of the sickness that afflicts the West today.

Far from "draining the swamp", the swamp just got bigger and ordinary Americans are going to find themselves paying more for basic services that used to be covered by Federal and State government budgets - to say nothing of a State Department gutted - is truly terrifying for the loss of institutional knowledge, and everything that that entails.

Here in New Zealand, we just got rid of crony capitalism after 30 long, long years, but by God, the right - backed by wealthy corporate interests - are taking a leaf out of the Republican play-book by making the ride as rough as possible and attempting to trash established conventions and the institutions that provide stability. That's why those of us who live outside the U.S take an interest in your political affairs - it's like looking into the future.

I wish you all the best.



The tax bill is horrific, just awful for poor and middle-income families. The Republican Party can never again position themselves as the party of "fiscal responsibility" and it's another example of how far they have fallen.


And the Democratic Party can be position themselves as the party of "fiscal responsibility"? They nearly doubled the outstanding debt of our nation in just 8 years (approximately $9 trillion over that period) through their profligate ways. :lol: :lol:



I guess Obama must have forgotten his own warning.

Re: and now it really begins ...

Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:43 am

drjohncarpenter on Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:49 pm wrote:The tax bill is horrific historic.....


Fixed.

Re: and now it really begins ...

Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:17 am

Mike C on Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:12 pm wrote:
And the Democratic Party can be position themselves as the party of "fiscal responsibility"? They nearly doubled the outstanding debt of our nation in just 8 years (approximately $9 trillion over that period) through their profligate ways.

$9 trillion will look like peanuts compared to the tsunami that's coming your way with these latest tax cuts Mike. Without that tax revenue your government will be forced to either borrow to maintain the services people will still expect, or they'll be cut (except the military of course - the only department that is NEVER cut or audited). I give Obama kudos for at least trying to resist the worst excesses of the banks and big corporates, who let's face it are the ones who are firmly in the driver's seat and who really call the shots. And to be fair, he did have the little problem of the GFC and two wars (including one that was completely unnecessary) to pay for, that were inherited from the previous administration. :smt002

If you're going to point the finger, the overwhelming evidence shows that unlike the post-war years when the benefits of prosperity were shared more fairly so that everyone prospered, most of the wealth generated over the last 30 years in the West has been redistributed upwards through tax cuts for the few at the top. Socialism for banks and corporates. That hollowing out has become a race to the bottom for everyone else - a form of social Darwinism - and its made us mean, intolerant and fearful as we retreat into our little identity cliques and shout / heap blame on each other.

Tax cuts affect the nuts and bolts stuff and you don't notice it until there's an opioid epidemic because the regulators can't employ enough people to provide adequate oversight. Or the State Department stops functioning because the people who speak foreign languages and understand the culture and history of other countries so trade deals can be negotiated or wars can be avoided if possible, aren't appointed. In the absence of a functioning State Dept, war becomes just another policy option because there's no sound, independent analysis being done to prevent it. One former US ambassador that I was in email contact with recently told me that US embassies around the world used to get a daily briefing that kept them up with the play. Now, they get nothing and are on their own.

In this part of the world (Asia / Pacific), countries are turning away from the US and that's not something I necessarily think is a good thing. But it's hard to see this ending well.

Re: and now it really begins ...

Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:17 am

The tax bill will not help lower income and poor people, it will help the rich. Here in Australia the Liberal government cut the corporate tax rates and want to cut it further. They claim this will lead to more investment and jobs growth but that is rubbish. As an example, we have a laundromat business as a sideline but we have not increased the hours of our employee (the cut will help cover the booming power and gas bills and contribute to the big corporations that provide those services). The changes here might have helped me as a higher-level earner, but I'm not in need like many other people.

Interesting how the Maniac in Chief has changed his story about the sacking of Flynn. Hopefully the indictment won't be far away.

Re: and now it really begins ...

Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:22 am

Matthew Miller‏Verified account @matthewamiller
13h13 hours ago

Matthew Miller Retweeted Donald J. Trump

Oh my god, he just admitted to obstruction of justice. If Trump knew Flynn lied to the FBI when he asked Comey to let it go, then there is your case.

Re: and now it really begins ...

Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:32 am

Saturday Night Live's "Weekend Update" weighs in with the latest news:


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Weekend Update on the GOP Tax Plan - SNL



And the cold open was brilliant:


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White House Christmas Cold Open - SNL

Re: and now it really begins ...

Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:37 am

More food for thought. I can't believe this moron is (still) in power. He's a clear and present danger to the world. History won't look kindly on those enabling him.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... iddle-east

Re: and now it really begins ...

Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:03 pm

Pink&Black on Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:37 pm wrote:More food for thought. I can't believe this moron is (still) in power. He's a clear and present danger to the world. History won't look kindly on those enabling him.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... iddle-east


Not a word from the Trump-Basher General about this appalling decision. Not hard to figure why. :wink:

Re: and now it really begins ...

Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:23 pm

Pink&Black on Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:37 pm wrote:More food for thought. I can't believe this moron is (still) in power. He's a clear and present danger to the world. History won't look kindly on those enabling him.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/06/donald-trump-jerusalem-statement-capital-israel-middle-east



Even Jimmy Fallon is finally stepping into the arena to comment, in his own way.

From his broadcast a few days ago:



phpBB [media]

Re: and now it really begins ...

Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:58 pm

drjohncarpenter on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:23 pm wrote:
Pink&Black on Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:37 pm wrote:More food for thought. I can't believe this moron is (still) in power. He's a clear and present danger to the world. History won't look kindly on those enabling him.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/06/donald-trump-jerusalem-statement-capital-israel-middle-east



Even Jimmy Fallon is finally stepping into the arena to comment, in his own way.

From his broadcast a few days ago:



phpBB [media]


He must be desperate given that his audience has shrunk by 25%.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/28/business/media/jimmy-fallon-tonight-show-ratings-colbert-kimmel-decline.html

Talk about a steep decline. :face: I bet a rerun of an old Johnny Carson show would garner better ratings. :D

Re: and now it really begins ...

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:25 am

Mike C on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:58 pm wrote:
drjohncarpenter on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:23 pm wrote:Even Jimmy Fallon is finally stepping into the arena to comment, in his own way.

From his broadcast a few days ago:



phpBB [media]


He must be desperate ...



Someone on this topic is desperate, that's for sure.

Re: and now it really begins ...

Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:34 am

drjohncarpenter on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:25 pm wrote:
Mike C on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:58 pm wrote:
drjohncarpenter on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:23 pm wrote:Even Jimmy Fallon is finally stepping into the arena to comment, in his own way.

From his broadcast a few days ago:



phpBB [media]


He must be desperate ...



Someone on this topic is desperate, that's for sure.


Yeah, it is the person who started this thread and still thinks Russian influence elected Trump!

Oh yeah, another Democratic pervert elector announced he is resigning today. Down goes Franken! Down goes Franken!

Image

And, Trump is still President and bringing back economic growth to the nation with smart policies.

Re: and now it really begins ...

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:06 am

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/ ... s-for.html

Re: and now it really begins ...

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:40 am

Mike C on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:58 pm wrote:He must be desperate given that his audience has shrunk by 25%. [...] Talk about a steep decline. :face: I bet a rerun of an old Johnny Carson show would garner better ratings. :D


Trump has 44.2 million followers on Twitter and Obama has 97.7 million followers. I must be missing some universal law that those that have a bigger audience are the only ones that people should take notice of and listen to and those with the smaller audience should be cast aside, like those that have been accused of sexual assaults. Oh wait ....




chris on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:06 pm wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/30/dow-hits-new-high-for-63rd-time-under-trump-here-s-what-it-means-for.html


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trumps-meager-impact-on-the-economy-and-stocks/




Interactive Timeline: Everything We Know About Russia and President Trump:

http://billmoyers.com/story/trump-russia-timeline/

Re: and now it really begins ...

Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:27 am

Got to love the link to Bill Moyers, conspiracy theorist. He is the Alex Jones of PBS!

Re: and now it really begins ...

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:28 pm

Mike C on Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:58 pm wrote:
drjohncarpenter on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:23 pm wrote:
Pink&Black on Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:37 pm wrote:More food for thought. I can't believe this moron is (still) in power. He's a clear and present danger to the world. History won't look kindly on those enabling him.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/06/donald-trump-jerusalem-statement-capital-israel-middle-east



Even Jimmy Fallon is finally stepping into the arena to comment, in his own way.

From his broadcast a few days ago:



phpBB [media]


He must be desperate given that his audience has shrunk by 25%.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/28/business/media/jimmy-fallon-tonight-show-ratings-colbert-kimmel-decline.html

Talk about a steep decline. :face: I bet a rerun of an old Johnny Carson show would garner better ratings. :D

One of Trump’s most unpleasant tactics is to demean those who criticise him in an attempt to rebut or deflect the criticism in question. The issue addressed - for those fooled by this tactic - is thus sidestepped completely by changing the subject.

Fallacious ad hominem ‘arguments’ such as these have been used to fool the unthinking over the last couple of thousand years.

And you’ve just tried to do the same with your posting on this forum.

Jimmy Fallon’s ratings have no bearing on the validity of the point he’s making.

Re: and now it really begins ...

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:34 pm

Well, it seems his wife doesn't know the date of the Pearl Harbor attack, and he doesn't know a famous quote regarding it.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/donald-trump-misquoted-famous-pearl-11655966

And then he could barely get through his speech yesterday because of slurred speech, and today it has been announced he is having a medical exam.

They should concentrate during that exam on finding his brain.

Re: and now it really begins ...

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:43 pm

NumberEight on Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:28 am wrote:
Mike C on Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:58 pm wrote:
drjohncarpenter on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:23 pm wrote:
Pink&Black on Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:37 pm wrote:More food for thought. I can't believe this moron is (still) in power. He's a clear and present danger to the world. History won't look kindly on those enabling him.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/06/donald-trump-jerusalem-statement-capital-israel-middle-east



Even Jimmy Fallon is finally stepping into the arena to comment, in his own way.

From his broadcast a few days ago:



phpBB [media]


He must be desperate given that his audience has shrunk by 25%.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/28/business/media/jimmy-fallon-tonight-show-ratings-colbert-kimmel-decline.html

Talk about a steep decline. :face: I bet a rerun of an old Johnny Carson show would garner better ratings. :D

One of Trump’s most unpleasant tactics is to demean those who criticise him in an attempt to rebut or deflect the criticism in question. The issue addressed - for those fooled by this tactic - is thus sidestepped completely by changing the subject.

Fallacious ad hominem ‘arguments’ such as these have been used to fool the unthinking over the last couple of thousand years.

And you’ve just tried to do the same with your posting on this forum.

Jimmy Fallon’s ratings have no bearing on the validity of the point he’s making.


How is pointing out the fact that his rating decline is causing Fallon to do the skit demeaning him?

Re: and now it really begins ...

Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:34 pm

NumberEight on Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:28 am wrote:One of Trump’s most unpleasant tactics is to demean those who criticise him in an attempt to rebut or deflect the criticism in question. The issue addressed - for those fooled by this tactic - is thus sidestepped completely by changing the subject.

Fallacious ad hominem ‘arguments’ such as these have been used to fool the unthinking over the last couple of thousand years.

And you’ve just tried to do the same with your posting on this forum.

Jimmy Fallon’s ratings have no bearing on the validity of the point he’s making.



Of course.

But have you noticed that this Trumpie has consistently avoided every single point presented on this lengthy topic, and chosen to distract each time?

It certainly proves that he knows the truth being presented, and cannot bring himself to accept the truth, or the fact that his vote a year ago put him on the wrong side of history.

Hold tight, democracy.

Re: and now it really begins ...

Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:45 pm

drjohncarpenter on Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:34 pm wrote:
NumberEight on Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:28 am wrote:One of Trump’s most unpleasant tactics is to demean those who criticise him in an attempt to rebut or deflect the criticism in question. The issue addressed - for those fooled by this tactic - is thus sidestepped completely by changing the subject.

Fallacious ad hominem ‘arguments’ such as these have been used to fool the unthinking over the last couple of thousand years.

And you’ve just tried to do the same with your posting on this forum.

Jimmy Fallon’s ratings have no bearing on the validity of the point he’s making.



Of course.

But have you noticed that this Trumpie has consistently avoided every single point presented on this lengthy topic, and chosen to distract each time?

It certainly proves that he knows the truth being presented, and cannot bring himself to accept the truth, or the fact that his vote a year ago put him on the wrong side of history.

Hold tight, democracy.


More ad hominem attacks from the Doc. What a shocker!

I have addressed your points on numerous occasions. You don't like the answers so you call it distraction.

Honestly, what gives you the right to judge whether or not I am on the wrong side of history?

BTW, we live in a democratic republic not a democracy. :facep:

Re: and now it really begins ...

Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:53 pm

Mike C on Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:45 pm wrote:
drjohncarpenter on Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:34 pm wrote:
NumberEight on Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:28 am wrote:One of Trump’s most unpleasant tactics is to demean those who criticise him in an attempt to rebut or deflect the criticism in question. The issue addressed - for those fooled by this tactic - is thus sidestepped completely by changing the subject.

Fallacious ad hominem ‘arguments’ such as these have been used to fool the unthinking over the last couple of thousand years.

And you’ve just tried to do the same with your posting on this forum.

Jimmy Fallon’s ratings have no bearing on the validity of the point he’s making.



Of course.

But have you noticed that this Trumpie has consistently avoided every single point presented on this lengthy topic, and chosen to distract each time?

It certainly proves that he knows the truth being presented, and cannot bring himself to accept the truth, or the fact that his vote a year ago put him on the wrong side of history.

Hold tight, democracy.


More ad hominem attacks from the Doc. What a shocker!

I have addressed your points on numerous occasions. You don't like the answers so you call it distraction.

Honestly, what gives you the right to judge whether or not I am on the wrong side of history?

BTW, we live in a democratic republic not a democracy. :facep:


Pointing out the fallacies in the way you have been arguing in this forum is not an ad hominen argument.

And the fallacy in your Jimmy Fallon argument is the assumption that the skit and his declining ratings are in any way connected.

Re: and now it really begins ...

Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:33 am

NumberEight on Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:53 pm wrote:
Mike C on Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:45 pm wrote:
drjohncarpenter on Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:34 pm wrote:
NumberEight on Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:28 am wrote:One of Trump’s most unpleasant tactics is to demean those who criticise him in an attempt to rebut or deflect the criticism in question. The issue addressed - for those fooled by this tactic - is thus sidestepped completely by changing the subject.

Fallacious ad hominem ‘arguments’ such as these have been used to fool the unthinking over the last couple of thousand years.

And you’ve just tried to do the same with your posting on this forum.

Jimmy Fallon’s ratings have no bearing on the validity of the point he’s making.



Of course.

But have you noticed that this Trumpie has consistently avoided every single point presented on this lengthy topic, and chosen to distract each time?

It certainly proves that he knows the truth being presented, and cannot bring himself to accept the truth, or the fact that his vote a year ago put him on the wrong side of history.

Hold tight, democracy.


More ad hominem attacks from the Doc. What a shocker!

I have addressed your points on numerous occasions. You don't like the answers so you call it distraction.

Honestly, what gives you the right to judge whether or not I am on the wrong side of history?

BTW, we live in a democratic republic not a democracy. :facep:


Pointing out the fallacies in the way you have been arguing in this forum is not an ad hominen argument.

And the fallacy in your Jimmy Fallon argument is the assumption that the skit and his declining ratings are in any way connected.


Hmm, I guess the phrase "this Trumpie" is a term of endearment then, right? If you read the piece I linked to, you'll see that Fallon has been shredding viewers because he will no do political jokes. Hence, why I suggested he performed the skit he did.

It has been almost year and Mueller or his team has not produced any substantive evidence of collusion with Russia. Two folks have pled guilty to a single count of lying to the FBI (a process crime). If these folks were involved in the "collusion", Mueller would have them plead guilty to it as well as it would make it easier for him to establish the case against senior players. He didn't which indicates he lacks any evidence. And, Manafort was indicted on violations relating to lobbying for foreign nations in the years prior 2015 and hiding money from the IRS for from such actions.

As I have said repeatedly,there was no collusion. And, yet, the myth continues. Trump won the election by the manner in which we elect Presidents because he ran a better campaign with a more coherent message.

Re: and now it really begins ...

Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:25 am

NumberEight on Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:53 am wrote:Pointing out the fallacies in the way you have been arguing in this forum is not an ad hominen argument.

And the fallacy in your Jimmy Fallon argument is the assumption that the skit and his declining ratings are in any way connected.



Correct on both points. Like other Trumpies, he distracts at all times.

Let's face some facts here. In only 7 months, Bob Mueller has 3 indictments, multiple cooperating witnesses and is finalizing a plea deal with Mike Flynn.

Clearly there is a level of corruption here that might be the worst in the history of this great country. Only time will tell.

But I have faith in our institutions, our laws and our democracy.

Re: and now it really begins ...

Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:14 am

drjohncarpenter on Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:25 pm wrote:
NumberEight on Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:53 am wrote:Pointing out the fallacies in the way you have been arguing in this forum is not an ad hominen argument.

And the fallacy in your Jimmy Fallon argument is the assumption that the skit and his declining ratings are in any way connected.



Correct on both points. Like other Trumpies, he distracts at all times.

Let's face some facts here. In only 7 months, Bob Mueller has 3 indictments, multiple cooperating witnesses and is finalizing a plea deal with Mike Flynn.

Clearly there is a level of corruption here that might be the worst in the history of this great country. Only time will tell.

But I have faith in our institutions, our laws and our democracy.


Care to it a friendly wager on whether Mueller ever wins a collusion conviction against Trump or his campaign team?