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Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:36 am

mike edwards66 on Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:10 pm wrote:
drjohncarpenter on Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:05 pm wrote:
mike edwards66 on Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:54 pm wrote:Probably the same way he missed that it was Marion Keisker who discovered Elvis Presley.


Ah, but he didn't.


Is that right!



Yup. You'll actually need to dig into his books to find the answer, since you appear to doubt me, rather than searching and posting out of context quotes I made on other topics, using bright colors, bold type and large fonts.

I know you're not a "book guy," but that's your problem, not mine.

Or, instead of continuing to divert, you can address the core points I bring up. You've only ignored them three times now.


#1
drjohncarpenter on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:24 am wrote:Maybe it's not been heard before because it's unverified. The linked article offers no sources, and the author, Jeremy Burchard, is best known as "the blonde half of country duo Moonlight Social."

http://www.wideopencountry.com/author/jeremy-burchard/

In Sam Phillips: The Man Who Invented Rock 'n' Roll, historian Peter Guralnick's 2016 biography, Fred Foster is only discussed regarding the February 1964 purchase of Phillips' Nashville studio. One might think a May 1955 offer for Elvis' Sun contract -- and refusal -- would merit a sentence or two.




#2
drjohncarpenter on Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:25 pm wrote:Peter Guralnick interviewed Fred Foster many times, going back to the first volume of his two-part Elvis Presley biography. You are being willfully ignorant to suggest that no mention was ever made of this very significant event. Peter doesn't write about it because it did not happen.




#3
drjohncarpenter on Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:34 pm wrote:How in the world did Peter Guralnick miss mentioning Mercury made the offer on Elvis' contract in two different books on the subject?




::rocks

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:54 am

Everyone wanted Elvis' contract but only one record label could get it. RCA got it because they were willing to pay a little bit more. Sure assuming that Mercury would've put as much money into promoting Elvis as RCA did they could have been very successful. But who knows if they would have done that. You just don't know what might have happened in that type of what if scenario. I still think RCA was the best destination for Elvis in the fifties. They were the biggest record label in the world with the most money and that benefited Elvis. Fred Foster was just saying he wished he had got Elvis. Just like Ahmed Ertegun saying that he wished he had gotten Elvis. It's interesting but nothing new.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:50 am

Juan Luis wrote:
mike edwards66 on Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:10 pm wrote:
drjohncarpenter on Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:05 pm wrote:It's a shame Marion Keisker is being swept into the dustbin of history. If only Elvis had lived long enough to set the story down in his own words. She would have gotten her due, and both Sam and Peter would have to accept that.

OUCH!

OUCH indeed!

Yup. djc making his feelings clear and really sticking it to "Sam and Peter". Lucky for him, neither Sam nor Peter frequent FECC.



brian wrote:Fred Foster was just saying he wished he had got Elvis. Just like Ahmed Ertegun saying that he wished he had gotten Elvis.

Nah. Industry legend, Fred Foster, has no need to lie, his CV is more than impressive with or without Presley.

"So I called Art and I said, You have got to buy this artist, he's going to be the biggest thing that's ever happened"

"So he called Sam Phillips and he called me....three or four days later....he wants fifty thousand dollars for him and I've offered him thirty five"

"Heartbreak Hotel is sitting at number one............what would that have done for Mercury.............can you imagine, I was right, he would have made it back on the first record"



brian wrote: It's interesting but nothing new.

It's new to FECC and it's been my pleasure to bring it.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:54 am

He's not lying. He was just saying Mercury put in a bid when all the other labels did but they came up short. That's all.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:06 am

brian on Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:54 pm wrote:He's not lying. He was just saying Mercury put in a bid when all the other labels did but they came up short. That's all.

No. That's not what he said.

"So I called Art and I said, You have got to buy this artist, he's going to be the biggest thing that's ever happened"

"So he called Sam Phillips and he called me....three or four days later....he wants fifty thousand dollars for him and I've offered him thirty five"

"Heartbreak Hotel is sitting at number one............what would that have done for Mercury.............can you imagine, I was right, he would have made it back on the first record"


Now, the bigger picture. If Fred Foster and Mercury had been successful in May 1955 and got Elvis, what might that have meant for the Colonel. He and Elvis had only met a few months earlier. Surely, if Mercury had got Elvis, Colonel Parker would have been aced out of the game.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:28 am

In that video interview with him he says when we got word his contract was for sale. Indicating that it really was November of 1955. His other statement that you are talking about could be contributed to a foggy memory because it was so long ago. Notice though that he never mentions a specific time frame. There's been no indication that Sam Phillips ever entertained offers of selling Elvis' contract before then and Fred Foster doesn't contradict that if you'll notice. He was just under contract to Sun records until Colonel Parker came aboard, started a rumor that Elvis' contract was for sale and then convinced Sam Phillips to sale it. Other labels became interested including Mercury according to Fred Foster but RCA paid more and got his contract. This was in November of 1955. He started recording for RCA in January of 1956 with Heartbreak hotel and Fred Foster was lamenting that had they won his contract that could've been them. But you win some and you lose some. Again that comment indicates the November 55 to January of 1956 time frame which no one has ever disputed.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:37 am

Thanks for your original post, Mike, but I think I may be missing something with regard to the subsequent discussion.

In Guralncik's book on Phillips he states on page 250 that at some point in mid 1955 (perhaps May-July) Mercury were one of many companies who made tentative enquiries/offers pertaining to Elvis' recording contract.

At that time, Sam had no interest in selling Elvis but he did occasionally give a figure of $20,000 (for example) to ward off the the potential buyers.

It's possible Sam named a figure of $50,000 to Fred Foster as means of scaring him off?

It wasn't until Parker secured the Presleys' permission to sell that the contract was actually up for sale -- and there was only one place the Colonel wanted to go.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:58 am

George Smith on Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:37 pm wrote:Thanks for your original post, Mike, but I think I may be missing something with regard to the subsequent discussion.

In Guralncik's book on Phillips he states on page 250 that at some point in mid 1955 (perhaps May-July) Mercury were one of many companies who made tentative enquiries/offers pertaining to Elvis' recording contract.

At that time, Sam had no interest in selling Elvis but he did occasionally give a figure of $20,000 (for example) to ward off the the potential buyers.

It's possible Sam named a figure of $50,000 to Fred Foster as means of scaring him off?

It wasn't until Parker secured the Presleys' permission to sell that the contract was actually up for sale -- and there was only one place the Colonel wanted to go.


I suppose that could be possible. But I tend to think if Mercury or some other label had offered $35,000 for Elvis' contract that May it would've got serious consideration from Sam Phillips. Elvis might have wanted to go with them at that time if it happened. I suppose the truth could be that Mercury tried to get Elvis' contract on two separate occasions in 1955 but during their first attempt Sam Phillips wasn't interested. In the second attempt when Sam Phillips put Elvis' contract up for sale RCA offered more money. Mike could've cleared up the confusion if he said it was two offers but he didn't. If someone could find evidence of another specific offer happening that would be great.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:28 am

brian on 03 Dec 2017, 23:58 wrote:I suppose that could be possible. But I tend to think if Mercury or some other label had offered $35,000 for Elvis' contract that May it would've got serious consideration from Sam Phillips. Elvis might have wanted to go with them at that time if it happened. I suppose the truth could be that Mercury tried to get Elvis' contract on two separate occasions in 1955 but during their first attempt Sam Phillips wasn't interested. In the second attempt when Sam Phillips put Elvis' contract up for sale RCA offered more money. Mike could've cleared up the confusion if he said it was two offers but he didn't. If someone could find evidence of another specific offer happening that would be great.


Same book, same page: Mitch Miller of Columbia enquired and Sam asked for $20,000. Miller refused. Dot and MGM also made enquiries.

It's important to understand the context here: this initial bidding war from summer 1955 was instigated by the Colonel behind the scenes as he tried to prise Elvis away from Phillips.

Sam had no real interest in selling Elvis at this time and so, when asked how much he wanted for Elvis' contract, he plucked an insane figure out of the air. He said $20,000 but he could just as easily have said $20,000,000. Sam's message to the other companies was "He's not for sale and even if he was you couldn't afford him." Added to which, Elvis did not want to leave Sun at that time.

It's quite possible that many hip A&R men recognised Elvis' talent but to take a $20,000 risk on a new artist who sang a new type of music for a niche market was an enormous gamble.

When Parker finally secured the Presleys' permission to sell in November, Sam was shoe-horned into a tricky situation: he still didn't want to let Elvis go but desperately needed the money by this time. So he threw the absurd figure of $35,000 + $5,000 at Parker who was most certainly shocked by this. It took all of Parker's acumen (and his friendship with Jean Aberbach) to persuade RCA to part with that amount of money.

There wasn't really a bidding war in November because Parker wanted to be at RCA, and his mission from the Presleys was not to accept the highest bid but simply to find the best company to advance Elvis' career. No one but Parker knew who bid and how much they bid.

The only other serious contender in November was Atlantic who wanted Elvis so badly they made it clear they'd give every last penny they had. But Parker had contacts and influence at RCA and he knew that's where he'd be best positioned once he was Elvis' manager.

Parker always liked to move in the same circles: RCA, H&R, William Morris -- that was his family, from a business perpective.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:31 am

I am aware of Colonel Parker's close ties to RCA and that he very well would've wanted Elvis there. As he had a very close relationship with RCA and all his previous clients had recorded for them. I call it a bid because other labels made offers and even though Parker secretly wanted Elvis with RCA it does appear that they did indeed offer the most money. Because I have heard of the offers the other labels made. I have also heard of Sam Phillips coming up with a sum he thought no one would actually pay that being $35,000. I have heard him say that in interviews. But what is being alledged is that Mercury offered $35,000 in May of 55. That was much more than $20,000 being offered by Columbia or the offers by MGM or Dot I assume. Not sure if that's true. Not quite sold on it yet.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:24 pm

It is, of course, entirely possible that Fred Foster's memory is 100% correct and his story is indeed exactly as it happened.

But bearing in mind the coincidence of the figure of $35,000 it is also possible that the events were as follows:

a) In the summer, following a nod from Parker, Mercury were one of several companies who started pestering Sam to sell
b) For the most part, Sam just said "No" but did ask for $20,000 for some companies (Columbia, for example)
c) In November, word got around that Elvis' contract was at last actually for sale and the asking price was $35,000
d) Mercury may have been one of the companies prepared to bid that figure (I believe Atlantic may have also been willing)
e) Parker sold the contract to RCA regardless, but it would have been very interesting to consider what might have happened had another company offered even more

Who knows?

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:52 pm

Ahmed Ertegun has admitted that Atlantic records offered $25,000 and he said it was all the money they had to offer. Atlantic was an independent label at that time.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:43 am

brian wrote:Notice though that he never mentions a specific time frame.

"He said, "Well, here it is (I'm Left, You're Right, She's Gone), the hottest record in town"..." equals May 1955.


George Smith wrote:Thanks for your original post, Mike, but I think I may be missing something with regard to the subsequent discussion.

In Guralncik's book on Phillips he states on page 250 that at some point in mid 1955 (perhaps May-July) Mercury were one of many companies who made tentative enquiries/offers pertaining to Elvis' recording contract.

You're welcome, George. That is the point, Mercury have always been a part of the historical mix. But, this is new information of an early concrete offer.


George Smith wrote:At that time, Sam had no interest in selling Elvis but he did occasionally give a figure of $20,000 (for example) to ward off the the potential buyers.

It's possible Sam named a figure of $50,000 to Fred Foster as means of scaring him off?

It's possible, George. But $50,000 is not $20,000. So, it's just as possible Sam was serious.



George Smith wrote:It is, of course, entirely possible that Fred Foster's memory is 100% correct and his story is indeed exactly as it happened.

Spoken like a true scholar. You realise, of course, that with that statement, you have officially ended djc's participation in this topic!

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:55 am

I just don't think Fred Foster meant anything other than he tried to get Elvis' contract when it was up for sale but he didn't. I don't think he is saying that he was ahead of the curve with Elvis and that he made an attempt to get Elvis with $35,000 several months before RCA did. He didn't actually come out and say that but I can understand the confusion. It doesn't matter anyway.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:08 am

To me, the most likely scenario is a conflation of memories from two incidents.

Fred seems a nice guy and I don't really think it's a conscious attempt to deceive.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:21 am

George Smith wrote:To me, the most likely scenario is a conflation of memories from two incidents.

That would be what we scholars call the 'easy' option, George.


George Smith wrote:Fred seems a nice guy and I don't really think it's a conscious attempt to deceive.

I'm sure industry legend, Fred Foster, will be pleased to hear you don't really think it's a conscious attempt to deceive.


"He said, "Well, here it is (I'm Left, You're Right, She's Gone), the hottest record in town....So I called Art and I said, You have got to buy this artist, he's going to be the biggest thing that's ever happened"

"So he called Sam Phillips and he called me....three or four days later....he wants fifty thousand dollars for him and I've offered him thirty five"

"Heartbreak Hotel is sitting at number one............what would that have done for Mercury.............can you imagine, I was right, he would have made it back on the first record"



brian wrote:It doesn't matter anyway.

Thanks.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:59 am

Mike Edwards, Thanks for the thread. It's been fascinating. The best thread currently on FECC. Cheers.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:27 am

mike edwards66 on Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:56 pm wrote:
brian on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:13 pm wrote:In an article I read with Hank Snow he claimed to have gotten to know Elvis while on tour.......

Funny you should say that. Hank Snow is on record as saying that he knew Elvis Presley before he (Elvis) made his Opry appearance. Of course, when I brought this information to FECC (I love bringing new information to FECC), you can probably guess who cried "I don't believe it".

Here's the quote, from Hank Snow's autobiography, "The Hank Snow Story" page 383:
"One of the stories I've read claimed that I had to ask Elvis his name before introducing him. Like countless other statements this was completely untrue, because Elvis had been to my home several times before he made his Opry appearance."




Juan Luis wrote:Thanks Mike! Great findings and definite connection. Norbert Putnam compared Fred Foster to Felton Jarvis as producers in (words to the effect) both having great ears for what the public wanted in music.

In March '69 "Billboard" reported that:
"Formerly with RCA as secretary to Chet Atkins and co-ordinator of administrative services, Mary Lynch joins Monument Records Corp. as director of production administration, a newly created post. She retains primary responsibility of administrative duties and procedures aligned with all phases of production. She answers directly to Monument president Fred Foster......"

The same Mary Lynch who was Mrs Felton Jarvis.



brian wrote:Mike Edwards, Thanks for the thread. It's been fascinating. The best thread currently on FECC. Cheers.

Thank you, Brian. It's a pleasure to bring new information to FECC. What's a scholar gotta do to get a sticky around here.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:17 am

George Smith on Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:08 pm wrote:To me, the most likely scenario is a conflation of memories from two incidents.

Fred seems a nice guy and I don't really think it's a conscious attempt to deceive.



I'm sure that what Peter Guralnick felt as well, after his interviews with Fred Foster. He is a very discrete writer.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:05 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
George Smith on Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:08 pm wrote:To me, the most likely scenario is a conflation of memories from two incidents.

Fred seems a nice guy and I don't really think it's a conscious attempt to deceive.



I'm sure that what Peter Guralnick felt as well, after his interviews with Fred Foster. He is a very discrete writer.


Discrete, huh. So not a "disappointment" anymore? How discrete was he when he swept Marion Keisker into the "dustbin of history".


It's clear that neither Art Talmadge nor Fred Foster had ever heard of Elvis Presley before:


"He said, "Well, here it is (I'm Left, You're Right, She's Gone), the hottest record in town"....I said, "What is that record you were playing?" He said, "That's Elvis Presley"......So I called Art and I said, "You have got to buy this artist, he's going to be the biggest thing that's ever happened" "

"And he said, "Oh, come on, (Elvis Presley) what kind of a name is that anyway"......I said....."Who cares!.......I'm telling you....and you better listen.....this guy is unreal".......He said, "Okay, send me a record" "

"So he called Sam Phillips and he called me....three or four days later...."He wants fifty thousand dollars for him and I've offered him thirty five" "

"Heartbreak Hotel is sitting at number one............what would that have done for Mercury.............can you imagine, I was right, he would have made it back on the first record"

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:34 am

mike edwards66 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:27 pm wrote:
mike edwards66 on Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:56 pm wrote:
brian on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:13 pm wrote:In an article I read with Hank Snow he claimed to have gotten to know Elvis while on tour.......

Funny you should say that. Hank Snow is on record as saying that he knew Elvis Presley before he (Elvis) made his Opry appearance. Of course, when I brought this information to FECC (I love bringing new information to FECC), you can probably guess who cried "I don't believe it".

Here's the quote, from Hank Snow's autobiography, "The Hank Snow Story" page 383:
"One of the stories I've read claimed that I had to ask Elvis his name before introducing him. Like countless other statements this was completely untrue, because Elvis had been to my home several times before he made his Opry appearance."




Juan Luis wrote:Thanks Mike! Great findings and definite connection. Norbert Putnam compared Fred Foster to Felton Jarvis as producers in (words to the effect) both having great ears for what the public wanted in music.

In March '69 "Billboard" reported that:
"Formerly with RCA as secretary to Chet Atkins and co-ordinator of administrative services, Mary Lynch joins Monument Records Corp. as director of production administration, a newly created post. She retains primary responsibility of administrative duties and procedures aligned with all phases of production. She answers directly to Monument president Fred Foster......"

The same Mary Lynch who was Mrs Felton Jarvis.



brian wrote:Mike Edwards, Thanks for the thread. It's been fascinating. The best thread currently on FECC. Cheers.

Thank you, Brian. It's a pleasure to bring new information to FECC. What's a scholar gotta do to get a sticky around here.
Good question! ::rocks

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:49 am

mike edwards66 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:27 pm wrote:
mike edwards66 on Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:56 pm wrote:
brian on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:13 pm wrote:In an article I read with Hank Snow he claimed to have gotten to know Elvis while on tour.......

Funny you should say that. Hank Snow is on record as saying that he knew Elvis Presley before he (Elvis) made his Opry appearance. Of course, when I brought this information to FECC (I love bringing new information to FECC), you can probably guess who cried "I don't believe it".

Here's the quote, from Hank Snow's autobiography, "The Hank Snow Story" page 383:
"One of the stories I've read claimed that I had to ask Elvis his name before introducing him. Like countless other statements this was completely untrue, because Elvis had been to my home several times before he made his Opry appearance."




Juan Luis wrote:Thanks Mike! Great findings and definite connection. Norbert Putnam compared Fred Foster to Felton Jarvis as producers in (words to the effect) both having great ears for what the public wanted in music.

In March '69 "Billboard" reported that:
"Formerly with RCA as secretary to Chet Atkins and co-ordinator of administrative services, Mary Lynch joins Monument Records Corp. as director of production administration, a newly created post. She retains primary responsibility of administrative duties and procedures aligned with all phases of production. She answers directly to Monument president Fred Foster......"

The same Mary Lynch who was Mrs Felton Jarvis.



brian wrote:Mike Edwards, Thanks for the thread. It's been fascinating. The best thread currently on FECC. Cheers.

Thank you, Brian. It's a pleasure to bring new information to FECC. What's a scholar gotta do to get a sticky around here.
Image

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:02 am

Juan Luis wrote:
mike edwards66 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:27 pm wrote:
brian wrote:Mike Edwards, Thanks for the thread. It's been fascinating. The best thread currently on FECC. Cheers.

Thank you, Brian. It's a pleasure to bring new information to FECC. What's a scholar gotta do to get a sticky around here.

Good question!

Maybe the next topic will crack it!




Juan Luis on Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:34 am wrote:Image


Excellent addition, Juan. Mary Lynch was Fred Foster's 'right hand gal', and Felton Jarvis was Elvis' right hand man.

Boy, to be a fly on the wall, for their "How was your day, honey?" conversations.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:12 am

mike edwards66 on Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:02 pm wrote:
Juan Luis wrote:
mike edwards66 on Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:27 pm wrote:
brian wrote:Mike Edwards, Thanks for the thread. It's been fascinating. The best thread currently on FECC. Cheers.

Thank you, Brian. It's a pleasure to bring new information to FECC. What's a scholar gotta do to get a sticky around here.

Good question!

Maybe the next topic will crack it!




Juan Luis on Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:34 am wrote:Image


Excellent addition, Juan. Mary Lynch was Fred Foster's 'right hand gal', and Felton Jarvis was Elvis' right hand man.

Boy, to be a fly on the wall, for their "How was your day, honey?" conversations.
This is stuff deserving a sticky.

Re: The Fred Foster Connection

Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:17 am

mike edwards66 on Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:56 pm wrote:
brian on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:13 pm wrote:To be fair I'm not sure if this story is true or not either.

To be fair, brian, none of us were there. But, why would industry legend, Fred Foster, lie. The suggestion is both preposterous and disrespectful.


Mike thanks for posting this, it's an interesting find and it's an intriguing idea. But I'd have to say it's really not disprespectful or preposterous to suggest this isn't true. No one is calling Fred Foster a liar. History is way more complicated than that. Personally I doubt this happened, I would say it is unlikely if such scholarly writer's as Guralnick have not picked it out. I wouldn't rule it out but in the absence of anything other than one person's remembrance, then as historians we have to say it's unlikely.

And here is where it gets interesting. I don't think Fred Foster is necessarily a liar. Or indeed all those other people you mentioned like Ronnie Dove.

We know that human beings over time, tend to lose detail of the events in their lives. last year me and some friends met up, we'd been at university in the late 1980s and as we reminisced it became clear that several of us had directly competing memories of the same events. It's not a case that one of us is true and one of us is a liar.

Here's a direct example - For years I swore I saw Nirvana playing at a small club, before they were famous. Years later when challenged by a knowledgeable Nirvana fan, I tried to find the date and I discovered it never happened. And yet I have actual real memories of that gig! I can see the band on stage, I can see Cobain, I can remember a girl I was with and what she was wearing.

In reality what happened is that I saw a different band then later when Nirvana became famous, I wrongly assumed it had been them. On a deeper level I must've wanted to be part of their story, to claim my place in their early history, to look good, and so my mind back filled detail into my memory that was incorrect. I'd actually seen a much more obscure Seattle grunge band, who were ont he same early label as Nirvana, Sub Pop - so I wasn't a million miles away. When I told people I'd seen Nirvana I wasn't deliberately lying, but I neither was I telling a truth!

It's a running joke in Manchester England that when the Sex Pistols played there in 1976 12 people turned up, and yet over the years hundreds have claimed "I was there". There's a book called "I swear I was there" which is fascinating attempt to get the truth. Eventually years later a photo emerged and at last historians could pinpoint who genuinely was there and so give more credence to their recollections.

Fred Foster may be getting confused with when he had dealings with Phillips over the studio later in the 60s. He may be misremembering the years. In his mind he'd want to think he's the kind of person who would recognise a talent like Elvis's and so he may well be back filling memories that aren't true. He may have attempted to sign a different artist then years afterwards he misremembered this as being Elvis. This has happened time and again in history. The history of WW2 is filled with stories like this, Historians have a tricky job that is why source documents are so sought after, because they add detail the human memory cannot.

I'm not having a go Mike - I think what you've dug up here is intriguing and definitely warrants further research. But it's not a case of saying someone is a liar. Even if we might be challenging their version of the truth.