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Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:22 pm

midnightx on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:17 pm wrote:How do you know that there was a "strong possibility" for "kinks" to occur in the new showroom?


Because it's "new". Nothing unusual about teething problems in a new venue. Nothing unusual at all.

midnightx on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:17 pm wrote: What do you base this on?


Common sense. But I guess it's true: it ain't so common.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure I've read in a few EP biogs the reasons mentioned by JL above too. Just sayin' an' all. :wink:

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:40 pm

Hard Rocker on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:22 pm wrote:
midnightx on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:17 pm wrote:How do you know that there was a "strong possibility" for "kinks" to occur in the new showroom?


Because it's "new". Nothing unusual about teething problems in a new venue. Nothing unusual at all.

midnightx on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:17 pm wrote: What do you base this on?


Common sense. But I guess it's true: it ain't so common.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure I've read in a few EP biogs the reasons mentioned by JL above too. Just sayin' an' all. :wink:

You have provided nothing substantive in your reply. You provide no basis for your "common sense" theory that because a venue is "new," it therefore will have technical problems. Was there a history of technical problems in new venues built by the International's designers? Do you really think the International was going to present a major entertainer for the grand opening of its showroom without having worked out any technical "kinks" or "bugs?" Additionally, if "teething" problems are not unusual, why would Streisand's representatives take a chance at having her prestigious opening at the International be impacted by technical issues, which according to you and Juan, were a "strong possibility?" It is a simple query that no one ever mentions when they blindly regurgitate Parker's misguided excuse.

So, Tom Parker concluded Elvis should go on second. That was certainly his prerogative, but it doesn't mean it was sound reasoning or based on his expertise in the area (Elvis had not toured since the late-1950's; venues and technology were very much different in 1969). I saw Springsteen open "Staples Center" in 1999; there were no technical kinks. Perhaps Jon Landau should have had Michael Buble open Staples first just in case. Oh, wait, he wasn't an out-of-touch manager like Tom Parker circa 1969.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:52 pm

midnightx on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:40 pm wrote:
Hard Rocker on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:22 pm wrote:
midnightx on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:17 pm wrote:How do you know that there was a "strong possibility" for "kinks" to occur in the new showroom?


Because it's "new". Nothing unusual about teething problems in a new venue. Nothing unusual at all.

midnightx on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:17 pm wrote: What do you base this on?


Common sense. But I guess it's true: it ain't so common.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure I've read in a few EP biogs the reasons mentioned by JL above too. Just sayin' an' all. :wink:

You have provided nothing substantive in your reply.


Er, yes I have.

You, sir, have waaaaaaay too much time on your hands.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:30 am

Revelations From The Memphis Mafia (Nash, A., p. 469)

"Alex Shoofey, the general manager, asked Colonel if Elvis wanted to open it. And Colonel said "Not on your life," because it was risky."

Now go ahead reject that as "substantial" too while you're at it. So predictable, you guys. :wink:

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:42 am

For Christs sake! Even this day and age..showrooms have kinks to solve when new. I have an executive friend at Royal Carribbean and those ships with mega size theaters have kinks to solve for at least 4-6 weeks. Technology in 1969 was even harder to work out cause it was more manual..it was a wise AND COMMON SENSE MOVE TO OPEN SECOND! Arguing for stubbornness sake only...Parker was stupid and totally out of touch... :roll: :lol:

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:49 am

It don' take much figurin'. :wink: :lol:

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:51 am

Hard Rocker on Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:49 pm wrote:It don' take much figurin'. :wink: :lol:
LOL... And another thing. Elvis watched a performer as Streisand on the stage he would later use and LEARNED what NOT to do. Anyway one looks at it. Wise move to open second.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:37 am

Juan Luis on Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:51 pm wrote:
Hard Rocker on Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:49 pm wrote:It don' take much figurin'. :wink: :lol:
LOL... And another thing. Elvis watched a performer as Streisand on the stage he would use and LEARNED what NOT to do. Anyway one looks at it. Wise move to open second. I dare to assert this! :lol:


I don't agree with you in that regard, Juan. Elvis could do nothing but learn from a performer like Streisand. Which isn't to say that he would have been looking to copy her, or found everything she done on stage valuable with regards to his own sensibilities. But in how she sang, presented herself, the way she paced her show and how she used an orchestra. She was - and still is - one of the great performers.

And he could have taken a leaf out of her book when it came to Hollywood. It really is a pity that A Star is Born didn't come to fruition with Elvis in the male lead. Although, I know you'll disagree with me on that one, Juan. But Kristofferson was more than able.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:54 am

Greystoke on Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:37 pm wrote:
Juan Luis on Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:51 pm wrote:
Hard Rocker on Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:49 pm wrote:It don' take much figurin'. :wink: :lol:
LOL... And another thing. Elvis watched a performer as Streisand on the stage he would use and LEARNED what NOT to do. Anyway one looks at it. Wise move to open second. I dare to assert this! :lol:


I don't agree with you in that regard, Juan. Elvis could do nothing but learn from a performer like Streisand. Which isn't to say that he would have been looking to copy her, or found everything she done on stage valuable with regards to his own sensibilities. But in how she sang, presented herself, the way she paced her show and how she used an orchestra. She was - and still is - one of the great performers.

And he could have taken a leaf out of her book when it came to Hollywood. It really is a pity that A Star is Born didn't come to fruition with Elvis in the male lead. Although, I know you'll disagree with me on that one, Juan. But Kristofferson was more than able.
I don't think Elvis was in position in 1975 to get on a film making disciplined schedule with Streisand or for that matter, anyone that would challenge him at his level of artistry, hard work.

Streisand supposedly played to the orchestra and even gave her back to the audience in some reports I remember reading. Anyways who knows if Elvis self-deprecation on stage at times during the beginning of his 1969 Vegas run was the result of a low self-esteem fear that cannot handle judgment of others? Pretty much the opposite of how Ms. Streisand came off to the public opinion in some instances that I read and heard.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:19 am

Juan Luis on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:54 pm wrote:
Greystoke on Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:37 pm wrote:
Juan Luis on Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:51 pm wrote:
Hard Rocker on Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:49 pm wrote:It don' take much figurin'. :wink: :lol:
LOL... And another thing. Elvis watched a performer as Streisand on the stage he would use and LEARNED what NOT to do. Anyway one looks at it. Wise move to open second. I dare to assert this! :lol:


I don't agree with you in that regard, Juan. Elvis could do nothing but learn from a performer like Streisand. Which isn't to say that he would have been looking to copy her, or found everything she done on stage valuable with regards to his own sensibilities. But in how she sang, presented herself, the way she paced her show and how she used an orchestra. She was - and still is - one of the great performers.

And he could have taken a leaf out of her book when it came to Hollywood. It really is a pity that A Star is Born didn't come to fruition with Elvis in the male lead. Although, I know you'll disagree with me on that one, Juan. But Kristofferson was more than able.
I don't think Elvis was in position in 1975 to get on a film making disciplined schedule with Streisand or for that matter, anyone that would challenge him at his level of artistry, hard work.

Streisand supposedly played to the orchestra and even gave her back to the audience in some reports I remember reading. Anyways who knows if Elvis self-deprecation on stage at times during the beginning of his 1969 Vegas run was the result of a low self-esteem fear that cannot handle judgment of others? Pretty much the opposite of how Ms. Streisand came off to the public opinion in some instances that I read and heard.


By 1975, I think Elvis badly needed to find something to get him off the road, out of Las Vegas and focusing on something productive. Because we know what did happen when he carried on regardless. Bearing in mind that Elvis had months to prepare for this role had he accepted.

I don't believe that Streisand played with her back to the audience in 1969, though. She doesn't do this in the footage that was filmed for a planned television special. Whilst Streisand was probably more insecure as a performer than Elvis. She stopped performing with any regularity because she had issues in this regard. Not just on a whim, but for over twenty years.

Elvis, on the other hand, seemed to love the concert stage and whilst he probably had some insecurities of his own in 1969, the challenge of something new seemed to stimulate him in ways that were lost through routine. Conversely, I don't think he was as disciplined as Streisand. He allowed himself to become complacent and grew bored easily. Which is evident in how uneven his performances could be almost from day-to-day, or how quickly songs were discarded. Not to mention half-versions and rushed renditions.

But whatever concerns, insecurities or moments of self-depreciation materialised in 1969, on stage, I don't think he was ever more focused or committed. Which isn't to say that Elvis didn't give good performances over subsequent years, but if he wasn't able to handle criticism, then he was in the wrong business.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:33 am

And yet... despite the likes, the silence remains deafening.... in the traditional sense. :lol:

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:39 am

Hard Rocker on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:33 pm wrote:And yet... despite the likes, the silence remains deafening.... in the traditional sense. :lol:

What are you referring to? You certainly have not raised anything that requires an additional response. Neither you nor Juan have provided anything to suggest “common sense” was employed by Tom Parker.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:43 am

What was there to gain for Elvis opening the new Showroom anyway - the selling point for his show was that it was Elvis' return to live performances.

But given Elvis had not performed live shows for so many years, while Barbra had been performing live through the 60's, it was probably a wise move to give himself time to evaluate the Showroom, attend her show, take in the atmosphere, all that. Leave opening the Showroom to another great performer with an established act, and adjust his new live act accordingly before hitting the stage himself.

And man, from the footage of Barbra's show, Elvis wasn't wrong about the band being a long distance from her, was he.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:55 am

goldbelt on Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:43 am wrote:What was there to gain for Elvis opening the new Showroom anyway - the selling point for his show was that it was Elvis' return to live performances.

But given Elvis had not performed live shows for so many years, while Barbra had been performing live throughout the 60's, it was probably a wise move to give himself time to evaluate the Showroom, attend her show, take in the atmosphere, all that. Leave opening the Showroom to another great performer with an established act, and adjust his new live act accordingly before hitting the stage himself.

And man, from the footage of Barbra's show, Elvis wasn't wrong about the band being a long distance from her, was he.


Even by 1969, a live performance by Barbra Streisand was a rare thing. As far as I'm aware, she hadn't done a season in a hotel or club for nearly six years. There had been a short tour in 1966, but other than that she had performed in concert only a dozen times from the beginning of 1964 to the beginning of her season at the International in 1969. She had, of course, performed in Funny Girl on Broadway and in London. When Streisand signed for the International opening, she was a hotter property than Elvis.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:06 am

poormadpeter2 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:55 am wrote:
goldbelt on Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:43 am wrote:What was there to gain for Elvis opening the new Showroom anyway - the selling point for his show was that it was Elvis' return to live performances.

But given Elvis had not performed live shows for so many years, while Barbra had been performing live throughout the 60's, it was probably a wise move to give himself time to evaluate the Showroom, attend her show, take in the atmosphere, all that. Leave opening the Showroom to another great performer with an established act, and adjust his new live act accordingly before hitting the stage himself.

And man, from the footage of Barbra's show, Elvis wasn't wrong about the band being a long distance from her, was he.


Even by 1969, a live performance by Barbra Streisand was a rare thing. As far as I'm aware, she hadn't done a season in a hotel or club for nearly six years. There had been a short tour in 1966, but other than that she had performed in concert only a dozen times from the beginning of 1964 to the beginning of her season at the International in 1969. She had, of course, performed in Funny Girl on Broadway and in London. When Streisand signed for the International opening, she was a hotter property than Elvis.


Yes, I had already amended the word 'throughout' to 'through', I wasn't intending to give the impression she had been performing a vast number of shows, rather that she had been performing at least some shows each year - whereas Elvis hadn't.

barbra-archives.com has detailed information on her live performances from each year, and many do seem to be one off performances.
Last edited by goldbelt on Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:07 am

Never understood the attraction of Streisand. I know a lot of folks consider her one of the greatest voices of the century, etc. and there's no doubting her technical prowess but she does absolutely nothing for me. She's Celine Dion from an earlier time.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:17 am

Hard Rocker on Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:07 am wrote:Never understood the attraction of Streisand. I know a lot of folks consider her one of the greatest voices of the century, etc. and there's no doubting her technical prowess but she does absolutely nothing for me. She's Celine Dion from an earlier time.


For me personally, I lose interest in her after 1970. Her early years, which saw her concentrating on jazz standards, found her to be remarkably inventive within her arrangements and vocal performances, adding in a kookiness and quirkiness to boot. But then the big ballads took over, and she seemed to lose that innate sense of FUN that is obvious when watching her early TV appearances and, indeed, listening to her early albums. Perfection took over from performance, sadly.

Give me this incarnation of Streisand anyday:



Last edited by poormadpeter2 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:18 am

She's not exactly easy on the eye :lol:

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:21 am

Hard Rocker on Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:18 am wrote:She's not exactly easy on the eye :lol:


Neither am I.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:22 am

As I stated. Elvis learned what not to do by watching other performers. And when he tried to stick to a script, he failed. The 1969 banter, for example. Elvis was informal starting at SUN. Sam Phillips left the chuckle and laughter in two great records...and that there my friends, is rock n roll.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:59 am

poormadpeter2 on Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:21 am wrote:
Hard Rocker on Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:18 am wrote:She's not exactly easy on the eye :lol:


Neither am I.


How's your singin'? :lol:

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:09 am

poormadpeter2 on Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:17 pm wrote:
Hard Rocker on Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:07 am wrote:Never understood the attraction of Streisand. I know a lot of folks consider her one of the greatest voices of the century, etc. and there's no doubting her technical prowess but she does absolutely nothing for me. She's Celine Dion from an earlier time.


For me personally, I lose interest in her after 1970. Her early years, which saw her concentrating on jazz standards, found her to be remarkably inventive within her arrangements and vocal performances, adding in a kookiness and quirkiness to boot. But then the big ballads took over, and she seemed to lose that innate sense of FUN that is obvious when watching her early TV appearances and, indeed, listening to her early albums. Perfection took over from performance, sadly.

Give me this incarnation of Streisand anyday:


























I liked this back in the day when it was new!

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:10 am

I've doubtless been a bit harsh on her. No question that she's very talented. I should listen to her while watching Britney with the sound down :)

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:23 am

midnightx on Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:40 pm wrote:
Hard Rocker on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:22 pm wrote:
midnightx on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:17 pm wrote:How do you know that there was a "strong possibility" for "kinks" to occur in the new showroom?


Because it's "new". Nothing unusual about teething problems in a new venue. Nothing unusual at all.

midnightx on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:17 pm wrote: What do you base this on?


Common sense. But I guess it's true: it ain't so common.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure I've read in a few EP biogs the reasons mentioned by JL above too. Just sayin' an' all. :wink:

You have provided nothing substantive in your reply. You provide no basis for your "common sense" theory that because a venue is "new," it therefore will have technical problems. Was there a history of technical problems in new venues built by the International's designers? Do you really think the International was going to present a major entertainer for the grand opening of its showroom without having worked out any technical "kinks" or "bugs?" Additionally, if "teething" problems are not unusual, why would Streisand's representatives take a chance at having her prestigious opening at the International be impacted by technical issues, which according to you and Juan, were a "strong possibility?" It is a simple query that no one ever mentions when they blindly regurgitate Parker's misguided excuse.

So, Tom Parker concluded Elvis should go on second. That was certainly his prerogative, but it doesn't mean it was sound reasoning or based on his expertise in the area (Elvis had not toured since the late-1950's; venues and technology were very much different in 1969). I saw Springsteen open "Staples Center" in 1999; there were no technical kinks. Perhaps Jon Landau should have had Michael Buble open Staples first just in case. Oh, wait, he wasn't an out-of-touch manager like Tom Parker circa 1969.


The proof is easy. Tom Parker was a genius who outsmarted everybody. Let’s go second Elvis we avoid all the problems (what problems) -see Elvis I’m always lookin out for muh boy. Better than to tell Elvis they actually want Striesand to open the showroom. Always a BS story.

Parker the genius unable to figure out that the house always wins. Ignorant carny got conned over and over. For example, Kerkorian offered stocks options that would have made Elvis really wealthy. We want cash none of that fancy stock stuff. Blowhard and fool he was. One thing you can be sure of is common sense never applied to Parker-just faux bluster and bravado.

Re: You Don't Have to Say You Love Me -The Single

Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:27 am

Greystoke on Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:19 pm wrote:
Juan Luis on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:54 pm wrote:
Greystoke on Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:37 pm wrote:
Juan Luis on Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:51 pm wrote:
Hard Rocker on Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:49 pm wrote:It don' take much figurin'. :wink: :lol:
LOL... And another thing. Elvis watched a performer as Streisand on the stage he would use and LEARNED what NOT to do. Anyway one looks at it. Wise move to open second. I dare to assert this! :lol:


I don't agree with you in that regard, Juan. Elvis could do nothing but learn from a performer like Streisand. Which isn't to say that he would have been looking to copy her, or found everything she done on stage valuable with regards to his own sensibilities. But in how she sang, presented herself, the way she paced her show and how she used an orchestra. She was - and still is - one of the great performers.

And he could have taken a leaf out of her book when it came to Hollywood. It really is a pity that A Star is Born didn't come to fruition with Elvis in the male lead. Although, I know you'll disagree with me on that one, Juan. But Kristofferson was more than able.
I don't think Elvis was in position in 1975 to get on a film making disciplined schedule with Streisand or for that matter, anyone that would challenge him at his level of artistry, hard work.

Streisand supposedly played to the orchestra and even gave her back to the audience in some reports I remember reading. Anyways who knows if Elvis self-deprecation on stage at times during the beginning of his 1969 Vegas run was the result of a low self-esteem fear that cannot handle judgment of others? Pretty much the opposite of how Ms. Streisand came off to the public opinion in some instances that I read and heard.


By 1975, I think Elvis badly needed to find something to get him off the road, out of Las Vegas and focusing on something productive. Because we know what did happen when he carried on regardless. Bearing in mind that Elvis had months to prepare for this role had he accepted.

I don't believe that Streisand played with her back to the audience in 1969, though. She doesn't do this in the footage that was filmed for a planned television special. Whilst Streisand was probably more insecure as a performer than Elvis. She stopped performing with any regularity because she had issues in this regard. Not just on a whim, but for over twenty years.

Elvis, on the other hand, seemed to love the concert stage and whilst he probably had some insecurities of his own in 1969, the challenge of something new seemed to stimulate him in ways that were lost through routine. Conversely, I don't think he was as disciplined as Streisand. He allowed himself to become complacent and grew bored easily. Which is evident in how uneven his performances could be almost from day-to-day, or how quickly songs were discarded. Not to mention half-versions and rushed renditions.

But whatever concerns, insecurities or moments of self-depreciation materialised in 1969, on stage, I don't think he was ever more focused or committed. Which isn't to say that Elvis didn't give good performances over subsequent years, but if he wasn't able to handle criticism, then he was in the wrong business.
It was reported about playing to the orchestra with her back to the audience. Insecurities? Well, she was an academy award winning actress ..she could have played the part to perfection had she wished. I can only speculate she did not come off as likeable. And of course in the TV special, she would give more for the cameras I would imagine. Elvis did see her, and supposedly did not like what he saw according to some books. So that is where I think he learned from. Whatever he didn't like by seeing her. He did not do or tried to avoid doing. Funny/ironic years later Elvis was accused of playing, not to the orchestra,...but to the front row, IIRC reading.