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Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:18 am

"Avoiding"and "relentlessly promoting " coming, of all the users here, from you is really something.
I don't care who you are, but that was funny from you.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:24 pm

matilda on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:18 am wrote:"Avoiding"and "relentlessly promoting " coming, of all the users here, from you is really something.
I don't care who you are, but that was funny from you.

Agreed!
His reply is so funny that one might think his profession (which I did ask him about but he ignored my question) is doing stand-up comedy!! :facep: :facep:
As I noted, plain and simple....
PiersEIN on Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:22 pm wrote: Now, for once, why don't you just kindly thank Shane Brown for his great investigations and move on?
Other people in the Elvis World also spend a lot of their time looking at unsolved Elvis mysteries and then produce fine work they should be congratulated for.

(it doesn't always have to be about you)
Piers

Is that so hard for a FECC poster to understand?
It does NOT have to be always about one ego-centric person.

drjohncarpenter on Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:44 am wrote:
This forum does not have a limit on opinion posting. Hope you can handle that.
::rocks

Cheers
Piers

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:02 pm

Truly fascinating read.

Why Carpenter always has to muddy the waters instead of dealing with the factual info. on offer is something only he knows. His comments are best ignored as they offer NOTHING.

Thanks to Shane and Piers.

Andy

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:57 pm

Excellent work,Shane. Your research is of a calibre that is rarely seen in the Elvis world these days. Thank you for sharing your findings with us.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:32 am

jetblack on Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:02 am wrote:Why Carpenter always has to muddy the waters instead of dealing with the factual info. on offer is something only he knows. His comments are best ignored as they offer NOTHING.



You seem to be very angry.

My post on page 1 offers my factual observations on the subject, with rare photos, first noting that any credible discussion of the story starts with the year 1955, not 1956. The article bases research on the latter. My main point is that this rumour has not been solved, it remains debatable what actually happened back then.

Other thoughts:

- I question the suggestion that the article makes about a proposed Presley appearance on KCMC-TV in Texarkana in the summer of 1956, hosted by "Cowboy John" Garner. Why would a children's show mc be bringing on pop and western musicians in the first place?

There is a photograph that does tie him to Johnny Cash and Roy Orbison, but the date and reason are unconfirmed.

560000_Cash_Garner_Orbison_KCMC TV.JPG
http://50sspirit.blogspot.com/2015/01/johnny-cash-roy-orbison.html


- I could not find a 90-minute, KCMC-TV program called "Afternoon Theater" in 1955-1956, but the station did have a weekday morning show called "Video Varieties" hosted by Haskell Jones that often featured musical performances by country artists, like Nan Castle. No mention is made of this program in the article.


- It's kind of sad that this research effort by a long-time member of FECC is not posted here, but on another site. So many other members have willingly shared their Elvis-related work here first. But not in this example. Food for thought.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:06 am

THIS POST WAS CORRECTED ON 28TH NOVEMBER 2017, 4.30PM GMT (SEE SECTION IN RED)

drjohncarpenter on Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:32 pm wrote:
jetblack on Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:02 am wrote:Why Carpenter always has to muddy the waters instead of dealing with the factual info. on offer is something only he knows. His comments are best ignored as they offer NOTHING.



You seem to be very angry.

My post on page 1 offers my factual observations on the subject, with rare photos, first noting that any credible discussion of the story starts with the year 1955, not 1956. The article bases research on the latter. My main point is that this rumour has not been solved, it remains debatable what actually happened back then.

Other thoughts:

- I question the suggestion that the article makes about a proposed Presley appearance on KCMC-TV in Texarkana in the summer of 1956, hosted by "Cowboy John" Garner. Why would a children's show mc be bringing on pop and western musicians in the first place?

There is a photograph that does tie him to Johnny Cash and Roy Orbison, but the date and reason are unconfirmed.

560000_Cash_Garner_Orbison_KCMC TV.JPG
http://50sspirit.blogspot.com/2015/01/johnny-cash-roy-orbison.html


- I could not find a 90-minute, KCMC-TV program called "Afternoon Theater" in 1955-1956, but the station did have a weekday morning show called "Video Varieties" hosted by Haskell Jones that often featured musical performances by country artists, like Nan Castle. No mention is made of this program in the article.

- It's kind of sad that this research effort by a long-time member of FECC is not posted here, but on another site. So many other members have willingly shared their Elvis-related work here first. But not in this example. Food for thought.


Your factual observations on page 1 are not factual. Hence the problem. There was no KMID show in 1955. The info we have previously been told is incorrect - hence the work I have done over the summer. If what we had been told in the past were true, then there would be no point in my article.

Now, to address your other points.

Firstly, my initial investigations into the Orbison TV show WERE posted here first, back in May. However, you went out of your way to simply repeat the oft-told story instead of letting the research speak for itself - just as you are doing here by bringing in completely unrelated programmes out of thin air with no evidence whatsoever to suggest that they are related to the Elvis non-appearance.

So why on earth would I want the post the final results here, on a forum where certain people are going to come along, attack what is written because they didn't and couldn't write it, and muddy the waters by reiterating falsehoods of the past. What's more with the final article running at 2500 words, a forum was clearly not the place for it. Nor did I want to print a lengthy post here only for it to disappear a week later. If you want to comment on the article on EIN, you are able to do so - I am sure Piers would be happy to include any reply by yourself in the comments section.

Secondly, why would western stars appear on a kids show hosted by Cowboy John? Well the hint might be in the name COWBOY John! :roll:

Thirdly, let's make things very clear: the 1955 TV archives were searched. There was no Orbison TV programmed in 1955. Your obsession with 1955 is just nuts. Just because a story has been told repeatedly does not mean it is true. Get over 1955, already! You have no evidence at all of a 1955 TV show featuring Orbison.
The Orbison archive, mined by a researcher hired by the Orbison family, gives us the CORRECT DATES of that TV show (January 1956 onward) that you for some reason cannot accept. There is NO DEBATE about Orbison having a TV show in 1955. It didn't happen. Read the new book and you will get the info there.

Fourthly, the photo you mention of Orbison, Cowboy John, and Cash is in the new book by the Orbison's, and is correctly labelled there - Afternoon Theater was the only regular KCMC show hosted by Cowboy John. An advert for the station in the local press that summer confirms that.

Fifthly, by continually trying to derail this thread with supposition and no evidence, you have done your reputation as a "scholar" no favours. I will elaborate: You state quite clearly "I could not find a 90-minute, KCMC-TV program called "Afternoon Theater" in 1955-1956" . My apologies. I should have been calling it Adventure Theater, as pointed out by Timothy in a later post.]

HOWEVER, it is worth saying that a search on newspapers.com for "afternoon theater kcmc" still pulled up listings such as those below, which should in turn have resulted in a query from you as to whether I had made an error in the title of the show, and not that it couldn't be found at all. Either way, no-one ever said it was on screen in 1955, so why you were looking for it in 1955 is anybody's guess.


The_Marshall_News_Messenger_Wed__Jun_13__1956_.jpg


October 26, 1956.JPG
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Last edited by poormadpeter2 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:41 pm, edited 7 times in total.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:13 am

Rock Legend on Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:57 pm wrote:Excellent work,Shane. Your research is of a calibre that is rarely seen in the Elvis world these days. Thank you for sharing your findings with us.


Shane's contributions here have substantially raised the bar on FECC. Hats off to the fella.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:23 am

I love all of the stories of the people that claimed to have footage of this or that. and then when it was time to put up or shut up nothing happens. "The price went up" or "I lost touch with the person", "never heard from them again" "they passed away and no one knows what happened to the footage" .."i saw the footage at a collectors show in 1982....or i know someone that did." ....blah, blah, blah.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:41 am

Thank you very much Shane, you have finally cracked it. For decades this was one of those long lingering mystery shows that was mentioned time and time again but no-one really had one shred of evidence it ever happened.

You have once and for all proven this never happened so we can take it off the fantasy list of footage that is supposedly out there.
You are a real asset to FECC and deliver professional journalism where you put your investigation first, with facts, facts and more facts, unlike some "scholar" ';) who only puts up topics to boost his ego.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:43 am

Simon1 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:41 am wrote:Thank you very much Shane, you have finally cracked it. For decades this was one of those long lingering mystery shows that was mentioned time and time again but no-one really had one shred of evidence it ever happened.

You have once and for all proven this never happened so we can take it off the fantasy list of footage that is supposedly out there.
You are a real asset to FECC and deliver professional journalism where you put your investigation first, with facts, facts and more facts, unlike some "scholar" ';) who only puts up topics to boost his ego.


Thank you. Marcel too, of course. He didn't know me from Adam and was happy for me to incorporate his work too, which was cool and appreciated.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:39 pm

Cowboy John Garner

John “Cowboy John” Nance Garner, 82, of Port Arthur, Texas passed away on Sunday, October 20, 2013 at his home.
He was born in San Antonio, Texas on January 1, 1931 to Marie and Ted Garner. He attended Arkansas Tech. John served in the Army with the Armed Forces Radio Service in Korea and Japan for 3 years. Prior to joining KJAC-TV he spent 3 ½ years at KCMC-TV in Texarkana, where he established a highly successful children’s show. In 1957 at KJAC he hosted the popular children’s show, The Circle 4 Club and became “Cowboy John”. After 23 years, left Channel 4 and joined First Bank and Trust in Groves in Public Relations for 8 years, then went to KOLE radio. He was a past member of the Noon Sertoma Club and the Confederate Air Force.
He was preceded in death by his parents and his brothers, Bill and Jim Garner.
John is survived by his wife of 43 years, Sue Wolford Garner of Port Arthur, Texas, his daughters, Tara Garner of Austin, Texas and Jennifer Dean and husband Roger of Nederland, Texas, sons, Joseph Garner and wife Lisa of Nederland, Texas and Bill Garner of Nederland, Texas, one grandson, Cody Garner of Nederland, Texas, great granddaughter, Kenadi Garner of Nederland, Texas, two step grandchildren, John and Shelby both of Austin, Texas.
He is also survived by his sisters-in-law, Mary Wolford of Crosby, Texas, Melissa Rojo of Austin, Texas, brothers-in-law, Carroll Wolford and wife Laquita of Dallas, Texas,
Kenneth Wolford of Orangefield, Texas, Kurt Wolford and wife Lynn of Mauriceville, Texas as well as a host of nieces and nephews and his Best Friend and co-host of Circle 4 Club, John Stevens, Sr. aka “Black Bart”.
Special Thank you to Dr. Randolph for his generosity and to his staff for all their support also Odyssey Hospice and all the nurses for their loving care and to all the good friends that were always giving their time.
A Public Memorial service will be at 7:00 PM Thursday, October 22, 2013 at Clayton Thompson Funeral Home with a special friend, Rev. David Edwards, officiating. Visitation will be on Thursday from 5 PM until service time at the funeral home.
Arrangements for cremation are entrusted to Clayton Thompson Funeral Directors in Groves.
In Lieu of flowers, contributions can be made to American Cancer Society

http://www.claytonthompson.com/memsol.c ... id=1133563

Mississippi

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:44 pm

drjohncarpenter on Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:32 pm wrote:
My post on page 1 offers my factual observations on the subject, with rare photos, first noting that any credible discussion of the story starts with the year 1955, not 1956. The article bases research on the latter. My main point is that this rumour has not been solved, it remains debatable what actually happened back then.


Having already corrected you last night on most of your most recent post, I wanted to come to the last part this afternoon.

You state the article bases research on 1956 and not 1955. I'm not sure which article you have been reading, but there are a whole 700 words dedicated to 1955 within the piece. They are as follows:

Let’s return to the Orbison website, and go back to 1955 when Roy’s group was known as the Wink Westerners:

During the summer of ’55 the Wink Westerners regrouped back in West Texas. When not appearing at local clubs, they would play at the Saturday Night Jamboree in Jal, New Mexico. The band somehow managed to appear, along with other local Country and Western bands, on a Saturday afternoon television show on KMID-TV Channel 2, out of Midland. In addition to their regular repertoire, they began to play some Rock and Roll numbers including “That’s All Right Mama”, “Rock Around the Clock” and of course, “Ooby Dooby”. They were an instant success and as a result were given their own thirty-minute show on Friday nights on KMID.

The problem here is that a thorough search of the TV listings for KMID in 1955 show no sign of the Wink Westerners having a thirty-minute show on a Friday (or any other) night. At this point, it was brought to my attention that a CD had been released back in 1995 containing some of the Teen Kings performances on their KOSA-TV show from 1956. I was provided with some of Mick Perry’s liner notes from this release. They read as follows – note how closely they resemble the above section from the Orbison website and must have provided the basis for it:

Summer 1955: The band somehow managed to appear, along with other local C&W bands, on a Saturday afternoon television show on KMID-TV (Channel 2), out of Midland, Texas. This was televised 'live' from an aircraft hangar near the Odessa-Midland airport. In addition to featuring their regular country songs the band also began playing some of the new Rock 'n' Roll songs including "That's All Right", "Rock Around the Clock", "Blue Moon of Kentucky" and of course, "Ooby Dooby". They were an instant success especially among the West Texas teens. As a result, they were soon given their own thirty-minute television show on Friday nights on KMID which was sponsored in the main by the Pioneer Furniture Co. of Odessa.

This last line grabbed my attention as, during my examination of TV schedules, I had come across a programme on KMID called Pioneer Playboys. Could this be the elusive Orbison show which was, so we are told, sponsored by the Pioneer Furniture Co? I thought that, perhaps, we might be getting somewhere. At first, I thought the Pioneer Playboys was a show sponsored by Pioneer, but that wasn’t the case. Instead, it turned out that the Pioneer Playboys were a western group…but then I read in a newspaper article that their lead singer was called Roy! Perhaps this was yet another name-change for Roy Orbison’s group? Alas not, some more digging allowed me to find out that the Roy at the head of this group was Roy Terry and not Roy Orbison! Another dead end.

The problem at this stage was not that Elvis couldn’t have had moments in his schedule when he could have appeared on a 1955 TV show, but that the TV show didn’t seem to have ever existed! What also seemed impossible to trace is just where and how these rumours started. The earliest book I have where the story is told is the 1990 edition of Elvis: His Life from A to Z – although I admit that my collection of Elvis books is not substantial, so perhaps someone out there can trace it back earlier than this. In the book, we find the familiar story of Elvis appearing on the Orbison show with Johnny Cash. Worth and Tamerius even narrow down the possible dates for this as April 1, May 31, July 22, October 12, and October 14 1955. These dates seem based on Elvis’s appearances in either Odessa or Midland during that year, which seems a sensible way of whittling down the possibilities, especially given there were no online newspaper archives to search back in the late 1980s. However, they can be searched now, and I can confirm that the TV schedules for those dates do not contain any suggestion of a TV show that Orbison might have been a part of.


My suggestion would be to go back and read the piece from start to finish.


by Mississippi » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:39 pm

Cowboy John Garner

...Prior to joining KJAC-TV he spent 3 ½ years at KCMC-TV in Texarkana, where he established a highly successful children’s show. In 1957 at KJAC he hosted the popular children’s show, The Circle 4 Club and became “Cowboy John”....


Thank you for posting the obit. Two things are relevant to the above short section above (apologies for quoting only a short section).

Firstly, the children's show was Afternoon Theater - which didn't get a new host when Cowboy John left, but simply went off air, with KCMC eventually showing American Bandstand in its place. We know Cowboy John's involvement with the show through the following ad:

Hope_Star_Mon__Nov_19__1956_.jpg


The above ad also shows that the obituary is incorrect, and that Cowboy John wasn't called that AFTER his move to KJAC, but before it. Whether the KCMC show had run its course by the time of Cowboy John's leaving is something we can't be sure of, but it is worth noting that, by the time of the ad, the show had been reduced from 90 minutes to 50 minutes.
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Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:58 pm

poormadpeter2 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:06 pm wrote:
drjohncarpenter
Your factual observations on page 1 are not factual. Hence the problem. There was no KMID show in 1955. The info we have previously been told is incorrect - hence the work I have done over the summer. If what we had been told in the past were true, then there would be no point in my article.

Now, to address your other points.
- Firstly, my initial investigations into the Orbison TV show WERE posted here first, back in May.
- Why on earth would I want the post the final results here, on a forum where certain people are going to come along, attack what is written because they didn't and couldn't write it, and muddy the waters by reiterating falsehoods of the past.
- Let's make things very clear: the 1955 TV archives were searched. There was no Orbison TV programmed in 1955. Your obsession with 1955 is just nuts. Just because a story has been told repeatedly does not mean it is true.
- By continually trying to derail this thread with supposition and no evidence, you have done your reputation as a "scholar" no favours.
How can we trust any research that you provide us with after that?
Next time you can't find something, it might be best to keep quiet about that fact and retain some of your reputation.

GREAT POINTS SHANE.

Simon1 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:41 pm wrote:Thank you very much Shane, you have finally cracked it. For decades this was one of those long lingering mystery shows that was mentioned time and time again but no-one really had one shred of evidence it ever happened.

You have once and for all proven this never happened so we can take it off the fantasy list of footage that is supposedly out there.
You are a real asset to FECC and deliver professional journalism where you put your investigation first, with facts, facts and more facts, unlike some "scholar" ';) who only puts up topics to boost his ego.
Well put, it was incredible research.

jetblack on Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:02 am wrote:Why Carpenter always has to muddy the waters instead of dealing with the factual info. on offer is something only he knows. His comments are best ignored as they offer NOTHING.
Seems like most FECC members agree that Shane's research is indeed very thorough.

However as Shane noted, "If you want to comment on the article on EIN, you are able to do so - I am sure Piers would be happy to include any reply by yourself in the comments section."
Drjohncarpenter, indeed if you feel you have something factual to offer and good points to make I will be more than happy to add them to Shane’s EIN article.
All worthy contributions are welcome.


As I noted a few days ago, why don't you just kindly thank Shane Brown for his great investigations and move on?
Other people in the Elvis World also spend a lot of their time looking at unsolved Elvis mysteries and then produce fine work they should be congratulated for.
(it doesn't always have to be about you)

Cheers
Piers
Last edited by PiersEIN on Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:59 pm

http://fadedsignals.com/post/6171507427 ... -texarkana

Mississippi

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:09 pm

poormadpeter2 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:44 pm wrote:Firstly, the children's show was Afternoon Theater - which didn't get a new host when Cowboy John left, but simply went off air, with KCMC eventually showing American Bandstand in its place. We know Cowboy John's involvement with the show through the following ad:
Hope_Star_Mon__Nov_19__1956_.jpg



Really interesting article - thanks for posting. The process of how history is written, fascinates me. Especially how failing memories and often repeated stories soon become fact. You've done a great job of trying to unravel all that. Amazing how this stuff is only 60+ years ago yet already it's still retains mystery. The newspaper archives really are a fascinating resource to have at your fingertips.

One query - You refer to Cowboy John's show as Afternoon Theater. In the listings clippings you posted earlier in the thread it says - 3pm Afternoon Show and 3.30pm Adventure theater.

Are you conflating two things? It's hard to read but on the the November 56 advert it looks to me like Cowboy John's show is Adventure Theater.

That sounds a lot less like a show that would have music on it? And more like one that would be full of adventure.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:36 pm

timothy_sideburns on Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:09 pm wrote:
poormadpeter2 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:44 pm wrote:Firstly, the children's show was Afternoon Theater - which didn't get a new host when Cowboy John left, but simply went off air, with KCMC eventually showing American Bandstand in its place. We know Cowboy John's involvement with the show through the following ad:
Hope_Star_Mon__Nov_19__1956_.jpg



Really interesting article - thanks for posting. The process of how history is written, fascinates me. Especially how failing memories and often repeated stories soon become fact. You've done a great job of trying to unravel all that. Amazing how this stuff is only 60+ years ago yet already it's still retains mystery. The newspaper archives really are a fascinating resource to have at your fingertips.

One query - You refer to Cowboy John's show as Afternoon Theater. In the listings clippings you posted earlier in the thread it says - 3pm Afternoon Show and 3.30pm Adventure theater.

Are you conflating two things? It's hard to read but on the the November 56 advert it looks to me like Cowboy John's show is Adventure Theater.

That sounds a lot less like a show that would have music on it? And more like one that would be full of adventure.


Yes, you are correct, and apologies for that - I somehow put the names of the two shows together.

I have corrected my previous post to DJC, and apologies for sending him on a slight wild goose chase, although why he didn't make the same spot as you when searching the listings, I'm not sure. It's not like it's a giant leap of logic if one examines the tv listings.

Despite the rather odd title, the show was definitely hosted by Cowboy John (as the ad shows), and I would imagine combined various drama sections (I'm guessing old 30s and 40s serials) with live material from the studio. That would make sense, but with none of the shows out there as far as we know, there is always going to be uncertainty with regards to the exact format.

As for the issue of 1955 being brought up over and over by others, there is no denying that Orbison and the "Wink Westerners" guest appeared on a TV show on KMID in the fall of that year, but they did not have their own show.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:58 pm

timothy_sideburns on Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:09 am wrote:
poormadpeter2 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:44 pm wrote:Firstly, the children's show was Afternoon Theater - which didn't get a new host when Cowboy John left, but simply went off air, with KCMC eventually showing American Bandstand in its place. We know Cowboy John's involvement with the show through the following ad:
Hope_Star_Mon__Nov_19__1956_.jpg



Really interesting article - thanks for posting. The process of how history is written, fascinates me. Especially how failing memories and often repeated stories soon become fact. You've done a great job of trying to unravel all that. Amazing how this stuff is only 60+ years ago yet already it's still retains mystery. The newspaper archives really are a fascinating resource to have at your fingertips.

One query - You refer to Cowboy John's show as Afternoon Theater. In the listings clippings you posted earlier in the thread it says - 3pm Afternoon Show and 3.30pm Adventure theater.

Are you conflating two things? It's hard to read but on the the November 56 advert it looks to me like Cowboy John's show is Adventure Theater.

That sounds a lot less like a show that would have music on it? And more like one that would be full of adventure.


Thank you.

As I wrote, "I could not find a 90-minute, KCMC-TV program called "Afternoon Theater" in 1955-1956." And that is because there is no program with that title. That I am lambasted as lacking "facts" is unfortunate, as that is certainly untrue.

"Adventure Theater with Cowboy John" was for children, and he moved it to another station in 1957, remaining a children's show. Just because he had "cowboy" in his name does not mean he was hosting musicians. On the other hand, I've mentioned a different KCMC-TV show that did exactly that, and no one is saying a thing. That's odd.

Bottom line is that this remains an open issue. And it should be noted that just because one cannot find a newspaper listing of a 1955 program with Roy Orbison does not mean he and his band never appeared on TV then, nor does it mean he never somehow hosted Elvis at that time. Someday, I hope a kinescope, photo or authentic paperwork surfaces to resolve this mystery.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:58 pm

Having read the article, one cannot fail but be impressed. The process of the research itself, dead ends, wrong turns and all, was most enjoyable.

If it was '56, that rules Elvis out. If it was '55, it has vanished into thin air.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:46 am

drjohncarpenter on Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:58 pm wrote:
timothy_sideburns on Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:09 am wrote:
poormadpeter2 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:44 pm wrote:Firstly, the children's show was Afternoon Theater - which didn't get a new host when Cowboy John left, but simply went off air, with KCMC eventually showing American Bandstand in its place. We know Cowboy John's involvement with the show through the following ad:
Hope_Star_Mon__Nov_19__1956_.jpg



Really interesting article - thanks for posting. The process of how history is written, fascinates me. Especially how failing memories and often repeated stories soon become fact. You've done a great job of trying to unravel all that. Amazing how this stuff is only 60+ years ago yet already it's still retains mystery. The newspaper archives really are a fascinating resource to have at your fingertips.

One query - You refer to Cowboy John's show as Afternoon Theater. In the listings clippings you posted earlier in the thread it says - 3pm Afternoon Show and 3.30pm Adventure theater.

Are you conflating two things? It's hard to read but on the the November 56 advert it looks to me like Cowboy John's show is Adventure Theater.

That sounds a lot less like a show that would have music on it? And more like one that would be full of adventure.


Thank you.

As I wrote, "I could not find a 90-minute, KCMC-TV program called "Afternoon Theater" in 1955-1956." And that is because there is no program with that title. That I am lambasted as lacking "facts" is unfortunate, as that is certainly untrue.

"Adventure Theater with Cowboy John" was for children, and he moved it to another station in 1957, remaining a children's show. Just because he had "cowboy" in his name does not mean he was hosting musicians. On the other hand, I've mentioned a different KCMC-TV show that did exactly that, and no one is saying a thing. That's odd.

Bottom line is that this remains an open issue. And it should be noted that just because one cannot find a newspaper listing of a 1955 program with Roy Orbison does not mean he and his band never appeared on TV then, nor does it mean he never somehow hosted Elvis at that time. Someday, I hope a kinescope, photo or authentic paperwork surfaces to resolve this mystery.


And you will note that I have been candid about my wording error, even highlighting in red for readers to note, complete with apology. I wonder how many times you do that when you make a mistake.

You seem to have something in your head that there is a problem with the programme in question being primarily a children's programme. Do you not ever watch children's programmes? What are they full of? Pop stars. Actors. Celebrities.

What's more, I have noted above in a previous post that there is nothing to say that Orbison didn't appear as a guest on TV in 1955, in fact we know he did as that is partly how he won his January 1956 KMID programme, Jamboree.

You might have mentioned another TV show that would have been a suitable vehicle for Orbison, Cash, and Elvis, but the reason no-one is giving you a round of applause is because you have plucked it out of thin air with no evidence that any of them appeared on it. We have evidence of the Cowboy John appearance - a photo - which links Orbison and Cash together (just as all the stories do) and which is known to be taken at the show at which Elvis was meant to show and did not. How we know that is not something I am willing to divulge without permission from Marcel, but given the amount of evidence presented so far and the quality of research within the article, is does not seem unreasonable to ask to be taken on trust for the time being on that one issue.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:00 am

drjohncarpenter on Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:58 pm wrote:
timothy_sideburns on Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:09 am wrote:
poormadpeter2 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:44 pm wrote:Firstly, the children's show was Afternoon Theater - which didn't get a new host when Cowboy John left, but simply went off air, with KCMC eventually showing American Bandstand in its place. We know Cowboy John's involvement with the show through the following ad:
Hope_Star_Mon__Nov_19__1956_.jpg



Really interesting article - thanks for posting. The process of how history is written, fascinates me. Especially how failing memories and often repeated stories soon become fact. You've done a great job of trying to unravel all that. Amazing how this stuff is only 60+ years ago yet already it's still retains mystery. The newspaper archives really are a fascinating resource to have at your fingertips.

One query - You refer to Cowboy John's show as Afternoon Theater. In the listings clippings you posted earlier in the thread it says - 3pm Afternoon Show and 3.30pm Adventure theater.

Are you conflating two things? It's hard to read but on the the November 56 advert it looks to me like Cowboy John's show is Adventure Theater.

That sounds a lot less like a show that would have music on it? And more like one that would be full of adventure.


Thank you.

As I wrote, "I could not find a 90-minute, KCMC-TV program called "Afternoon Theater" in 1955-1956." And that is because there is no program with that title. That I am lambasted as lacking "facts" is unfortunate, as that is certainly untrue.

"Adventure Theater with Cowboy John" was for children, and he moved it to another station in 1957, remaining a children's show. Just because he had "cowboy" in his name does not mean he was hosting musicians. On the other hand, I've mentioned a different KCMC-TV show that did exactly that, and no one is saying a thing. That's odd.

Bottom line is that this remains an open issue. And it should be noted that just because one cannot find a newspaper listing of a 1955 program with Roy Orbison does not mean he and his band never appeared on TV then, nor does it mean he never somehow hosted Elvis at that time. Someday, I hope a kinescope, photo or authentic paperwork surfaces to resolve this mystery.


Thanks Doc. I been trying to follow this thread without success. Bottom line seems like there is some information supporting the hypothesis but as you note it is far from solved. Seems like what is absent here are Elvis’ own words-like when he stated he recorded Tiger Man at Sun. Had we heard it from the horse’s mouth perhaps it would be solved. Whoops not on this board.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:21 am

I've never believed stories such as this. The reason being Elvis' career has been pretty well documented. Certainly more than any other entertainer that I can think of and I feel if he'd been on another t.v. program we'd know about it. If he had been on this show you'd think someone would've tried to sell it for big bucks. You'd think Roy Orbison would have mentioned this but to my knowledge he never did. If it happened and he owned the footage you'd think he would've sold it for big bucks. I've only been hearing rumors of this a few years ago. Nothing concrete just speculation that maybe he was. But prior to a few years ago I never heard anything about it. It's just like those whispers of footage of Elvis on the Louisiana Hayride. You hear a little bit of gossip but nothing ever shows up. Plus the Hayride was a radio program not a t.v. show.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 am

brian on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:21 pm wrote:I've never believed stories such as this. The reason being Elvis' career has been pretty well documented. Certainly more than any other entertainer that I can think of and I feel if he'd been on another t.v. program we'd know about it. If he had been on this show you'd think someone would've tried to sell it for big bucks. You'd think Roy Orbison would have mentioned this but to my knowledge he never did. If it happened and he owned the footage you'd think he would've sold it for big bucks. I've only been hearing rumors of this a few years ago. Nothing concrete just speculation that maybe he was. But prior to a few years ago I never heard anything about it. It's just like those whispers of footage of Elvis on the Louisiana Hayride. You hear a little bit of gossip but nothing ever shows up. Plus the Hayride was a radio program not a t.v. show.



There's more to the picture than meets the eye.

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:23 pm

brian on Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:21 pm wrote:I've never believed stories such as this. The reason being Elvis' career has been pretty well documented. Certainly more than any other entertainer that I can think of and I feel if he'd been on another t.v. program we'd know about it. If he had been on this show you'd think someone would've tried to sell it for big bucks.
You'd think Roy Orbison would have mentioned this but to my knowledge he never did.
If it happened and he owned the footage you'd think he would've sold it for big bucks. I've only been hearing rumors of this a few years ago. Nothing concrete just speculation that maybe he was. But prior to a few years ago I never heard anything about it. It's just like those whispers of footage of Elvis on the Louisiana Hayride. You hear a little bit of gossip but nothing ever shows up. Plus the Hayride was a radio program not a t.v. show.

That is so true Brian,
Roy Orbison WOULD have mentioned it since he talked about his early TV shows in interviews.

poormadpeter2 on Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:40 am wrote:
WWE: What about the Roy Orbison kinescope?
ERNST: The Roy Orbison is funny in a way that you know about it, I know about it and this friend of ours Cooleyin Nashville knows about it, and I'm sure Sam knows about it. The problem is that none of us have ever heard it. Barbara Orbison, an extraordinary lady, said that there were so many things that Roy was proud of. He mentioned who had been on his TV show from the older days and you know his favorite moments with this and that and he loved Elvis Presley. She talked about how they had been talking about motor cycles and all that. She says that, my whole problem with this whole story is that, Roy loved Elvis so much that she cannot understand that if Elvis had been on Roy's T.V. show that he never ever mentioned it.

2.) Ernst confirming that, in conversation with Roy's wife, he learned that Roy didn't mention once to her about Elvis being on his show, despite mentioning other guests.



The two points by PMP above are the real deal breakers.
Obviously Elvis loved Roy's music and vice-versa.
There is NO WAY that if Roy had had Elvis on his TV show that he would never have told anyone - not even his family - about it.

There's less to the picture than meets the eye.
It's has been all hearsay and urban myths that, luckily for us all, Shane Brown has finally sorted out.
FECC members should be offering congratulations to him for his work instead of mean spitefulness.

FECC is a message-board for all, even if some egocentric people would like it to be all about them.
Sadly this kind of bullish behaviour often causes fine FECC collaborators to up and leave.

Cheers
Piers

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:32 pm

fn2drive on Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:00 am wrote:
drjohncarpenter on Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:58 pm wrote:
timothy_sideburns on Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:09 am wrote:
poormadpeter2 on Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:44 pm wrote:Firstly, the children's show was Afternoon Theater - which didn't get a new host when Cowboy John left, but simply went off air, with KCMC eventually showing American Bandstand in its place. We know Cowboy John's involvement with the show through the following ad:
Hope_Star_Mon__Nov_19__1956_.jpg



Really interesting article - thanks for posting. The process of how history is written, fascinates me. Especially how failing memories and often repeated stories soon become fact. You've done a great job of trying to unravel all that. Amazing how this stuff is only 60+ years ago yet already it's still retains mystery. The newspaper archives really are a fascinating resource to have at your fingertips.

One query - You refer to Cowboy John's show as Afternoon Theater. In the listings clippings you posted earlier in the thread it says - 3pm Afternoon Show and 3.30pm Adventure theater.

Are you conflating two things? It's hard to read but on the the November 56 advert it looks to me like Cowboy John's show is Adventure Theater.

That sounds a lot less like a show that would have music on it? And more like one that would be full of adventure.


Thank you.

As I wrote, "I could not find a 90-minute, KCMC-TV program called "Afternoon Theater" in 1955-1956." And that is because there is no program with that title. That I am lambasted as lacking "facts" is unfortunate, as that is certainly untrue.

"Adventure Theater with Cowboy John" was for children, and he moved it to another station in 1957, remaining a children's show. Just because he had "cowboy" in his name does not mean he was hosting musicians. On the other hand, I've mentioned a different KCMC-TV show that did exactly that, and no one is saying a thing. That's odd.

Bottom line is that this remains an open issue. And it should be noted that just because one cannot find a newspaper listing of a 1955 program with Roy Orbison does not mean he and his band never appeared on TV then, nor does it mean he never somehow hosted Elvis at that time. Someday, I hope a kinescope, photo or authentic paperwork surfaces to resolve this mystery.


Thanks Doc. I been trying to follow this thread without success. Bottom line seems like there is some information supporting the hypothesis but as you note it is far from solved. Seems like what is absent here are Elvis’ own words-like when he stated he recorded Tiger Man at Sun. Had we heard it from the horse’s mouth perhaps it would be solved. Whoops not on this board.


So you wanted Elvis to go in stage and say "I never appeared on the Roy Orbison show - a show that never existed."

Re: The Roy Orbison Show: And now we know the reality!

Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:57 pm

PiersEIN on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:23 am wrote:
WWE: What about the Roy Orbison kinescope?
ERNST: Barbara Orbison, an extraordinary lady, said that there were so many things that Roy was proud of. He mentioned who had been on his TV show from the older days and you know his favorite moments with this and that and he loved Elvis Presley. She talked about how they had been talking about motor cycles and all that. She says that, my whole problem with this whole story is that, Roy loved Elvis so much that she cannot understand that if Elvis had been on Roy's T.V. show that he never ever mentioned it.


PiersEIN on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:23 am wrote:There is NO WAY that if Roy had had Elvis on his TV show that he would never have told anyone - not even his family - about it.


There's the answers right there. All the rest is mis-information, stubborness, hyperbole and rhetoric by jealous 'fans' who can't accept factual info. because of their own egos.

Andy