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Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:55 pm

Let's find out.

Elvis - Sinatra Timex acetate part 2.jpg


:D

- Kevin
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Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:13 pm

General Sarnoff wrote:Let's find out.

Image

:D

- Kevin



Well, isn't that an interesting artifact! So nice to see you posting here again, General Sarnoff. It has been far too long.

I have no idea why a 12" acetate would have been cut for the May 1960 "Frank Sinatra Timex Show with Elvis" audio.

What is this? Why was it made? In fact, are you the one who bought it?

I found the eBay page ... $3,500 bucks!


#1 RAREST ELVIS PRESLEY OFFICIAL LP 12" EVER ISSUED! 1960 W/ SINATRA & RAT PACK!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-RAREST-ELVIS-PRESLEY-OFFICIAL-LP-12-034-EVER-ISSUED-1960-W-SINATRA-amp-RAT-PACK-/391585465071

Item condition: Used
Ended: Nov 05, 2016 , 8:38AM
Price: US $3,500.00

-----

The Frank Sinatra Timex Show: Welcome Home Elvis

MUST HAVE ELVIS & SINATRA!

Here's simply the RAREST OFFICIALLY released 12" LP ever made on Elvis - Sinatra too!: A 1960 INDUSTRY ONLY Original Acetate recording of the legendary FRANK SINATRA TIMEX SHOW: WELCOME HOME ELVIS concert TV special! Why is this so rare? Because it was NEVER officially released except for rare industry ONLY original acetate LPs. This is one of those.

This disc is a MUST if you're looking to complete your original Elvis LP collection! This show was amazing for a host of reasons, Elvis' singing the best of them. His voice was never better. The quality of this original acetate can not be surpassed. His number, "Fame and Fortune" is especially well recorded and shines through on this original.

This two-sided LP record is in FANTASTIC shape and plays remarkably well. I think it's only been played a few times. I had it professionally transcribed and this 45 minute long treasure is an amazing listen. I love it so much that I've played the wav recording that was made of it over 100 times now. If you buy-it-now at the FULL $3500 price I'll include the digital wav file of the professional transcription.

Accompanying the rare disc is an ORIGINAL 1960 News Wire Service photograph with identifying tag on back (see photos # 1 & 4). This photo was taken and issued March 9th, 1960 when Elvis was released from his military service. Nancy Sinatra met Elvis at Fort Dix New Jersey to greet him upon his arrival. That was BIG news at the time. Both were signed to star in the her father's, "Frank Sinatra's Timex Show." This was Nancy's first professional gig. She killed on the show and so she went on to star with Elvis in a feature film. This rare photo is an original and a great piece to add with this even rarer acetate disc - both made in 1960. The photo measures 4.5x5.5 inches

Additionally, you get a nice REPRODUCTION invite to the Timex Show! Included with this lot is a reproduction (not original) invite for the show ( see photo #5). It's a nice little extra memento I bought to go with the other two originals. I couldn't find an original invite. Besides, an original 1960 printed invite would have increased the price of this lot at least another $1000. This reproduction measures 5 and 3/8th by 4.5 inches


161105_May 1960 Sinatra acetate_01.jpg


161105_May 1960 Sinatra acetate_02.jpg


161105_May 1960 Sinatra acetate_03.jpg


161105_May 1960 Sinatra acetate_04.jpg


161105_May 1960 Sinatra acetate_05.jpg

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Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:35 am

Doc:

Such excellent questions-- and no answers available!

I have no idea who commissioned it, or why. There is almost no available info on the company that did the cutting-- so far, I haven't even been able to find out in what city Caradoc Record Service was located! Though I do know they have done discs by other artists.

I do know where this disc went, and I have heard a portion of it. All I can tell you is that it is from a tape source (either the quad tape itself, or a recording of the broadcast). As a result, the SQ absolutely kills any available kinescope soundtrack. Seriously-- you can toss them all in the bin.

I'm sure I'll discover more background in the future, but for now, we'll have to merely accept its existence of the disc as we do that of the butterfly-- we may not know why Nature created them, but we can certainly enjoy the fact that they're here!

- Kevin

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:53 am

General Sarnoff wrote:Doc:

Such excellent questions-- and no answers available!

I have no idea who commissioned it, or why. There is almost no available info on the company that did the cutting-- so far, I haven't even been able to find out in what city Caradoc Record Service was located! Though I do know they have done discs by other artists.

I do know where this disc went, and I have heard a portion of it. All I can tell you is that it is from a tape source (either the quad tape itself, or a recording of the broadcast). As a result, the SQ absolutely kills any available kinescope soundtrack. Seriously-- you can toss them all in the bin.

I'm sure I'll discover more background in the future, but for now, we'll have to merely accept its existence of the disc as we do that of the butterfly-- we may not know why Nature created them, but we can certainly enjoy the fact that they're here!

- Kevin


Shoot. I had a feeling the audio would be premium.

I found another listing from two years back, of either the same disc ... or another copy:
http://www.rootsvinylguide.com/ebay_items/elvis-presley-welcome-home-elvis-1960-acetate-12-lp-frank-sinatra-nancy

So, it appears side A has five bands, side B has 4, that's 9 total tracks for the 52 minutes of broadcast. The second site seems to believe the Caradoc Record Service acetate is "assumed transcription disc for US radio broadcast."

Could the show have aired as a radio special?

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:35 pm

I'm surprised it didn't fetch more to be honest. Not that $3.5K is a small amount, but many records are worth hundreds or thousands purely for rarity or collectability. But this one had an actual bona fide and big AUDIO reason to own!

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:33 pm

General Sarnoff wrote:Doc:

Such excellent questions-- and no answers available!

I have no idea who commissioned it, or why. There is almost no available info on the company that did the cutting-- so far, I haven't even been able to find out in what city Caradoc Record Service was located! Though I do know they have done discs by other artists.

I do know where this disc went, and I have heard a portion of it. All I can tell you is that it is from a tape source (either the quad tape itself, or a recording of the broadcast). As a result, the SQ absolutely kills any available kinescope soundtrack. Seriously-- you can toss them all in the bin.

I'm sure I'll discover more background in the future, but for now, we'll have to merely accept its existence of the disc as we do that of the butterfly-- we may not know why Nature created them, but we can certainly enjoy the fact that they're here!

- Kevin

That's because it's a bootleg from Europe in the mid 90's it is rare and hard to find but not $3500.00 rare. The copy I had I sold years back because it sounded as if it was recorded with a microphone right off the television set and the label was starting to flake on one side as it's only cheap type un-glossy flat paper still got $50.00 for it -lost $30.00 on the deal. I bought it at a family owned music store called Mi-Own Music where I also bought "From The Waist Up" for $20.00 each.

Ebay never seems to amaze me :roll:

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:46 am

promiseland wrote:That's because it's a bootleg from Europe in the mid 90's it is rare and hard to find but not $3500.00 rare. The copy I had I sold years back because it sounded as if it was recorded with a microphone right off the television set and the label was starting to flake on one side as it's only cheap type un-glossy flat paper still got $50.00 for it -lost $30.00 on the deal. I bought it at a family owned music store called Mi-Own Music where I also bought "From The Waist Up" for $20.00 each.


Indianapolis, right? Didn't "Mi-Own Music" close back in the 80's?

- Kevin

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:59 am

General Sarnoff wrote:
promiseland wrote:That's because it's a bootleg from Europe in the mid 90's it is rare and hard to find but not $3500.00 rare. The copy I had I sold years back because it sounded as if it was recorded with a microphone right off the television set and the label was starting to flake on one side as it's only cheap type un-glossy flat paper still got $50.00 for it -lost $30.00 on the deal. I bought it at a family owned music store called Mi-Own Music where I also bought "From The Waist Up" for $20.00 each.


Indianapolis, right? Didn't "Mi-Own Music" close back in the 80's?

- Kevin


It seems like the copy on eBay this month is the real deal, then? You note that "the SQ absolutely kills any available kinescope soundtrack," which apparently isn't the case with the 1990s bootleg. FWIW, I don't recall any such bootleg from back then, the LP seen in this topic is a first for me.

Is there any way to conclusively determine why it was made, and for what purpose?

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:15 am

Is there any suggestion that this was not produced in the US because of the way the date is written? Would it normally be month first or am I speaking nonsense?

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:26 am

TCBell wrote:Is there any suggestion that this was not produced in the US because of the way the date is written? Would it normally be month first or am I speaking nonsense?


General Sarnoff is an expert on these kind of things, and considers it legitimate. Perhaps he can share more information on Caradoc Record Services.

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:26 am

Well, all I can say is that the transcription disc in question was cut using a high-fidelity source tape from the show. And remember, these discs are individually hand-cut, not stamped. Since I wasn't there at the time it was made, I can't say exactly when it was cut. However, given the amount of skill necessary to successfully cut a side right to within an 1/8' of the label, I'd say someone with a good amount of experience did it.

The disc has preserved approximately 45 minutes of the show's soundtrack, which, after subtracting John Cameron Swayze's portions, means they probably edited out about 7-8 minutes of dialogue from the show, which can be recovered from one of the A or B kinescope soundtracks.

As for the Caradoc Record Service, I don't have much on them yet. There are other transcription discs by other artists that bear the same label, but I have no information yet on where the company was located, or how long they were in business.

Given the existence of those other discs, my initial reaction is that this is genuine, if unexplained. (And really, it **does** seem unlikely that the "Bootleg Elvis" discography (which originated with European collectors) would have missed listing something like this, had it been created in the 1990s.). But, I leave that for to others to judge. My interest is what's in the grooves.

And Doc, drop me a PM, when you get the chance...

- Kevin

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:10 am

General Sarnoff wrote:Well, all I can say is that the transcription disc in question was cut using a high-fidelity source tape from the show. And remember, these discs are individually hand-cut, not stamped. Since I wasn't there at the time it was made, I can't say exactly when it was cut. However, given the amount of skill necessary to successfully cut a side right to within an 1/8' of the label, I'd say someone with a good amount of experience did it.

The disc has preserved approximately 45 minutes of the show's soundtrack, which, after subtracting John Cameron Swayze's portions, means they probably edited out about 7-8 minutes of dialogue from the show, which can be recovered from one of the A or B kinescope soundtracks.

As for the Caradoc Record Service, I don't have much on them yet. There are other transcription discs by other artists that bear the same label, but I have no information yet on where the company was located, or how long they were in business.

Given the existence of those other discs, my initial reaction is that this is genuine, if unexplained. (And really, it **does** seem unlikely that the "Bootleg Elvis" discography (which originated with European collectors) would have missed listing something like this, had it been created in the 1990s.). But, I leave that for to others to judge. My interest is what's in the grooves.

And Doc, drop me a PM, when you get the chance...

- Kevin


Lovely reply. Thank you!

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:24 am

Considering the show was pre-taped, the recording could have been made in order to promote the special on radio in the run-up to the airdate. But if that were the case, one would assume that there would be more of these floating around than there appears to be.

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:21 am

Just a small update--

I've now listened to the entire disc. The transcription preserved approximately 45:30 of the material (minus commercials), with the missing program pieces consisting of the Tom Hanson Dancers' "Japanese" dance number and the entire "Nutty Squirrels" dance / choreography sequence. There's also a few seconds of Sammy Davis Jr's dialogue missing from the beginning of his act with Peter Lawford, but that can easily be be patched in from a kinescope soundtrack. Other than that, everything is there, from top to tail, from the opening notes to the announcer's "This is an ABC Presentation", at the end of the credit roll.

I'm still stunned that this soundtrack has **finally** been found after 56 years... and in such amazing condition!! The sound quality is marvelous. Cleaning this up (hopefully for future use!) has been a rare pleasure, indeed.

A terrific Christmas present for Elvis and FS fans alike! :D

- Kevin

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:49 am

General Sarnoff wrote:Just a small update--

I've now listened to the entire disc. The transcription preserved approximately 45:30 of the material (minus commercials), with the missing program pieces consisting of the Tom Hanson Dancers' "Japanese" dance number and the entire "Nutty Squirrels" dance / choreography sequence. There's also a few seconds of Sammy Davis Jr's dialogue missing from the beginning of his act with Peter Lawford, but that can easily be be patched in from a kinescope soundtrack. Other than that, everything is there, from top to tail, from the opening notes to the announcer's "This is an ABC Presentation", at the end of the credit roll.

I'm still stunned that this soundtrack has **finally** been found after 56 years... and in such amazing condition!! The sound quality is marvelous. Cleaning this up (hopefully for future use!) has been a rare pleasure, indeed.

A terrific Christmas present for Elvis and FS fans alike! :D

- Kevin


Thank you for the detailed update. I can confirm the audio appears to be absolutely pristine, better than anything I've ever heard before from this 1960 TV special. These kind of finds give hope to many who believe there are still treasures to be unearthed on Elvis, perhaps as far back as the summer of 1954. I just hope I am around to enjoy them as they appear.

Please let us know the progress on your restoration. I want to have the best possible version in my collection.

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Thu Dec 15, 2016 6:15 pm

Looking forward (hopefully) to hearing this at some point in the future!! Thanks for this information General Sarnoff and congratulations on this rare and historic find!!!

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:13 pm

Amazing news - superb!

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:01 pm

Kevin,

Any chance an agreement could be made with Ernst and Sony to release the audio, and/or have it included as part of the upcoming HBO documentary?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:58 pm

Wow, this is a great development. Was it common for such discs to be made for musical television specials back then?

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:09 pm

elvis-fan wrote:Looking forward (hopefully) to hearing this at some point in the future!! Thanks for this information General Sarnoff and congratulations on this rare and historic find!!!


General Sarnoff works in mysterious ways. ;-)

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:53 am

Out of curiosity, does this run at 33-and-one-third rpm and, material-wise, is it standard vinyl ?

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:15 am

It is 33 1/3 RPM (and pretty densely packed!), but the disc itself is an acetate (metal core, coated with a dual-sided blank cutting surface-- usually nitrocellulose). The discs are individually hand-cut in the studio on a special cutting machine, as opposed to being stamped out on a press, as standard vinyl records are.

- Kevin

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:33 am

General Sarnoff wrote:It is 33 1/3 RPM (and pretty densely packed!), but the disc itself is an acetate (metal core, coated with a dual-sided blank cutting surface-- usually nitrocellulose). The discs are individually hand-cut in the studio on a special cutting machine, as opposed to being stamped out on a press, as standard vinyl records are.

- Kevin


Much appreciated, thank you. Can only be played on a specialised record deck, then, or by using special equipment ?

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:42 am

Ideally, yes... though many people ignore that. Fortunately, this one has been used **very** little.

Here's more than you probably want to know about the care and feeding of transcription discs:

http://www.theaudioarchive.com/TAA_Reso ... iption.htm

- Kevin

Re: Hmm-- they say one of these is worth 1,000 words...

Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:11 am

Great update!