How Come???

Anything about Elvis
More than 100 Million visitors can't be wrong

Moderators: Moderator5, Moderator3, FECC-Moderator, Site Mechanic

Post Reply


Topic author
Chucky99
Posts: 896
Registered for: 9 years 1 month
Location: Romania
Has thanked: 118 times
Been thanked: 431 times
Age: 42

How Come???

#1540580

Post by Chucky99 »

Hi guys.
I have an interesting question for today...
I was listening to Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra and I just realised that Dino had a US number 1 hit in 1964 with Everybody loves somebody in full british invasion and Sinatra did the same with Strangers in the night in 1966.
Elvis on the other hand had 3 wonderful ballads during the 1964-1966 period which did not enter the Top 10.
These 3 were: It Hurts Me , Please Don 't Stop Loving Me and Love Letters.In these records , Elvis ' voice is far superior to Dino and Sinatra in my opinion.
How come they managed to have a #1 hit in US billboard and Elvis didn't??
Thanks,Chucky.



User avatar

jetblack
Posts: 4613
Registered for: 19 years 6 months
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, England
Has thanked: 5782 times
Been thanked: 5169 times

Re: How Come???

#1540592

Post by jetblack »

'It Hurts Me' and 'Please Don't Stop Loving Me' were relegated to B sides. 'Love Letters' was a Top 20 hit in the US but did much better in the UK where it reached Number 6.

Andy


Elvis - King of the UK charts


r&b

Re: How Come???

#1540627

Post by r&b »

jetblack wrote:'It Hurts Me' and 'Please Don't Stop Loving Me' were relegated to B sides. 'Love Letters' was a Top 20 hit in the US but did much better in the UK where it reached Number 6.

Andy
Also Love Letters had been a pretty big hit in the US just 4 years before by Ketty Lester and she reached #5 with it on the charts (#1 R&B). Elvis basically copied the exact same arrangement for his record. He added nothing new to it, and it is an inferior version IMO. Frank & Dino's records were given modern arrangements and produced beautifully with tremendous radio appeal. Dino's record was so good, it became his signature song for the rest of his life. Love Letters could never do that. I never thought it was a good choice for a single in 1966.



User avatar

Tony C
Posts: 849
Registered for: 9 years 9 months
Mood:
Has thanked: 4990 times
Been thanked: 424 times
Age: 59

Re: How Come???

#1540669

Post by Tony C »

Chucky99 wrote:Hi guys.
I have an interesting question for today...
I was listening to Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra and I just realised that Dino had a US number 1 hit in 1964 with Everybody loves somebody in full british invasion and Sinatra did the same with Strangers in the night in 1966.
Elvis on the other hand had 3 wonderful ballads during the 1964-1966 period which did not enter the Top 10.
These 3 were: It Hurts Me , Please Don 't Stop Loving Me and Love Letters.In these records , Elvis ' voice is far superior to Dino and Sinatra in my opinion.
How come they managed to have a #1 hit in US billboard and Elvis didn't??
Thanks,Chucky.
More people bought the Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin records.




brian
Posts: 17407
Registered for: 15 years 9 months
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 3828 times

Re: How Come???

#1540730

Post by brian »

The charts are always a crapshoot Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra got lucky that those songs went to #1 given their age and the dominace of The Beatles and Motown during 1964. With Elvis none of those songs you mentioned got as much airplay or sales as the Martin and Sinatra songs did. These were the last big hits for both men while Elvis had his last big hit in 1972 so it balanced out. I always thought Elvis and RCA blew it with ''It hurts me'' that could have been a big hit but it was wasted as a B-side but it shouldn't have been. The other two songs you mentioned I don't think anyone thought they were killer songs that had a chance at going to #1.



User avatar

jurasic1968
Posts: 12401
Registered for: 11 years 7 months
Has thanked: 13259 times
Been thanked: 2586 times

Re: How Come???

#1540731

Post by jurasic1968 »

Love Letters was not.




r&b

Re: How Come???

#1540753

Post by r&b »

brian wrote:The charts are always a crapshoot Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra got lucky that those songs went to #1 given their age and the dominace of The Beatles and Motown during 1964. With Elvis none of those songs you mentioned got as much airplay or sales as the Martin and Sinatra songs did. These were the last big hits for both men while Elvis had his last big hit in 1972 so it balanced out. I always thought Elvis and RCA blew it with ''It hurts me'' that could have been a big hit but it was wasted as a B-side but it shouldn't have been. The other two songs you mentioned I don't think anyone thought they were killer songs that had a chance at going to #1.
Last big hits? I think not. Dino had hits with The Door Is Still Open To My Heart, (#6), and I Will (#10), plus he was selling a ton of albums at this time, I remember Houston was all over the radio too but didnt make the top 10 I dont think. He also had a huhely popular TV show, so he was def in the mainstream of music then. Meanwhile Frank had hits with That's Life (top 10),Something Stupid (#1) Summer Wind(#25 and considered a classic today) My Way (only top 40 but one of his most well known songs) , and New York, New York, another top 40 but again another signature tune for him. And before someone says yeah well Elvis had a lot of top 20-30 songs, how many are well known and identified with Elvis as these songs were for Frank? None.




brian
Posts: 17407
Registered for: 15 years 9 months
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 3828 times

Re: How Come???

#1540759

Post by brian »

r&b wrote:Last big hits? I think not. Dino had hits with The Door Is Still Open To My Heart, (#6), and I Will (#10), plus he was selling a ton of albums at this time, I remember Houston was all over the radio too but didnt make the top 10 I dont think. He also had a huhely popular TV show, so he was def in the mainstream of music then. Meanwhile Frank had hits with That's Life (top 10),Something Stupid (#1) Summer Wind(#25 and considered a classic today) My Way (only top 40 but one of his most well known songs) , and New York, New York, another top 40 but again another signature tune for him. And before someone says yeah well Elvis had a lot of top 20-30 songs, how many are well known and identified with Elvis as these songs were for Frank? None.
I didn't know that about Dean Martin thanks for the info. You are too harsh on Elvis.
Everyone has ups and it's downs it's just that Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra had a bit of an up swing in the charts at this time while Elvis was in a slump. Like I said they were lucky.




r&b

Re: How Come???

#1540765

Post by r&b »

brian wrote:
r&b wrote:Last big hits? I think not. Dino had hits with The Door Is Still Open To My Heart, (#6), and I Will (#10), plus he was selling a ton of albums at this time, I remember Houston was all over the radio too but didnt make the top 10 I dont think. He also had a huhely popular TV show, so he was def in the mainstream of music then. Meanwhile Frank had hits with That's Life (top 10),Something Stupid (#1) Summer Wind(#25 and considered a classic today) My Way (only top 40 but one of his most well known songs) , and New York, New York, another top 40 but again another signature tune for him. And before someone says yeah well Elvis had a lot of top 20-30 songs, how many are well known and identified with Elvis as these songs were for Frank? None.
I didn't know that about Dean Martin thanks for the info. You are too harsh on Elvis.
Everyone has ups and it's downs it's just that Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra had a bit of an up swing in the charts at this time while Elvis was in a slump. Like I said they were lucky.
Ive never heard of Dino and Frank being referred to as lucky. They were talented singers who had some good material and arrangers working with them at that time. It resulted in success. Why would you call that lucky? I dont think Im harsh on Elvis. I dont think the songs he was releasing at that time as singles were very good, and not as good as the hits Dino & Frank had. It only started to get better for Elvis late in 67 with Big Boss Man, but DJs were not paying much attention to Elvis anymore, certainly not in the NY/NJ radio market. Ive said it before, he was now more known as a film star than anything else. He really needed that 68 TV show, which by the way may have also helped Frank & Dean on the charts. Dean with his weekly show and Frank with the great string of TV Specials starting in 1965.




brian
Posts: 17407
Registered for: 15 years 9 months
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 3828 times

Re: How Come???

#1540770

Post by brian »

r&b wrote:Ive never heard of Dino and Frank being referred to as lucky. They were talented singers who had some good material and arrangers working with them at that time. It resulted in success. Why would you call that lucky? I dont think Im harsh on Elvis. I dont think the songs he was releasing at that time as singles were very good, and not as good as the hits Dino & Frank had.
Because when Frank Sinatra had that # 1 hit he was 50 years old and Dean Martin was about the same age. That's real old in the music business and you usually don't see singers top the singles charts at that age. They were both lucky disc jockeys took a shine to those songs. Hit songs aren't only about recording great songs they could just as easily have bombed.




r&b

Re: How Come???

#1540788

Post by r&b »

brian wrote:
r&b wrote:Ive never heard of Dino and Frank being referred to as lucky. They were talented singers who had some good material and arrangers working with them at that time. It resulted in success. Why would you call that lucky? I dont think Im harsh on Elvis. I dont think the songs he was releasing at that time as singles were very good, and not as good as the hits Dino & Frank had.
Because when Frank Sinatra had that # 1 hit he was 50 years old and Dean Martin was about the same age. That's real old in the music business and you usually don't see singers top the singles charts at that age. They were both lucky disc jockeys took a shine to those songs. Hit songs aren't only about recording great songs they could just as easily have bombed.
And Peggy Lee had a #1 in 1969 at the age of 49. It happens




brian
Posts: 17407
Registered for: 15 years 9 months
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 3828 times

Re: How Come???

#1540793

Post by brian »

r&b wrote:And Peggy Lee had a #1 in 1969 at the age of 49. It happens
She didn't. the point is that it doesn't happen very much not that it hasn't happened at all.




r&b

Re: How Come???

#1540797

Post by r&b »

brian wrote:
r&b wrote:And Peggy Lee had a #1 in 1969 at the age of 49. It happens
She didn't. the point is that it doesn't happen very much not that it hasn't happened at all.
I stand corrected - must have been the E Listening chart

Peggy Lee's version reached number 11 on the U.S. pop singles chart—becoming her first Top 40 pop hit since "Fever,"




brian
Posts: 17407
Registered for: 15 years 9 months
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 3828 times

Re: How Come???

#1540800

Post by brian »

We will never know but perhaps Elvis would have had a #1 hit when he was 50.



User avatar

drjohncarpenter
Posts: 107019
Registered for: 20 years 11 months
Location: United States of America
Has thanked: 11700 times
Been thanked: 33635 times
Age: 89

Re: How Come???

#1540802

Post by drjohncarpenter »

r&b wrote:
brian wrote:
r&b wrote:Ive never heard of Dino and Frank being referred to as lucky. They were talented singers who had some good material and arrangers working with them at that time. It resulted in success. Why would you call that lucky? I dont think Im harsh on Elvis. I dont think the songs he was releasing at that time as singles were very good, and not as good as the hits Dino & Frank had.
Because when Frank Sinatra had that # 1 hit he was 50 years old and Dean Martin was about the same age. That's real old in the music business and you usually don't see singers top the singles charts at that age. They were both lucky disc jockeys took a shine to those songs. Hit songs aren't only about recording great songs they could just as easily have bombed.
And Peggy Lee had a #1 in 1969 at the age of 49. It happens
The Leiber and Stoller ballad peaked on 11-08-1969 at #11 on Billboard's "Hot 100" and #10 on Cash Box's "Top 100" charts, but was a #1 on Billboard's "Adult Contemporary" chart on 10-15-1969. In the end, it is a memorable recording, and your point is still pretty solid.

Certainly, radio had to find a song attractive, and play it a lot, to drive sales at retail, but listener reaction played a part in what the disc jockeys programmed. And both "Strangers In The Night" and "Everybody Loves Somebody" had real appeal as far as the material, and how it was arranged, produced and sung. Note that Martin was 47 when he topped the "Hot 100" on August 15, 1964 (one week), Sinatra 50 when he did the same on July 2, 1966 (one week).


.
Dr. John Carpenter, M.D.
Stop, look and listen, baby <<--->> that's my philosophy!


brian
Posts: 17407
Registered for: 15 years 9 months
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 3828 times

Re: How Come???

#1540818

Post by brian »

Greystoke wrote:There's always an element of luck or good fortune with regards to most hit singles and albums, although singers and groups with large audiences who are current and popular typically have their best chart-runs because of that. Others, no matter how good their material may be, will find changing tastes and trends affecting their chart-presence. But there's such a thing as hot streaks, and that's something Sinatra had in the mid-sixties. And not by chance. He was actively trying to get back in the top-ten.

Frank was looking for a new, radio-friendly, sound by 1964 and this was encouraged by the success of Dean Martin's Everybody Loves Somebody. Which Frank had previously recorded himself. He contacted the record's producer, Jimmy Bowen, who started the ball rolling with Softly As I Leave You. Which peaked at No. 27 on Billboard`s pop singles chart.
Given the eclectic nature of the pop charts in 1964 I thought it was a mistake for Frank Sinatra not to release ''Fly me to the moon'' as a single because it may have been a top ten.



User avatar

emjel
Posts: 11929
Registered for: 16 years 7 months
Location: Liverpool
Has thanked: 1070 times
Been thanked: 4723 times

Re: How Come???

#1540822

Post by emjel »

Dean Martin had a big hit in the UK in '69 with Gentle On My Mind hitting #2. It reached #9 in Billboards Easy Listening Chart. Excellent track too.


~
Living is easy with eyes closed...misunderstanding all you see...

User avatar

elvis-fan
Posts: 16714
Registered for: 20 years 11 months
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 3951 times
Been thanked: 5487 times
Age: 89

Re: How Come???

#1540837

Post by elvis-fan »

brian wrote:We will never know but perhaps Elvis would have had a #1 hit when he was 50.
He did have a #1 hit when he would have been 67!!! :smt023
Last edited by elvis-fan on Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.



User avatar

drjohncarpenter
Posts: 107019
Registered for: 20 years 11 months
Location: United States of America
Has thanked: 11700 times
Been thanked: 33635 times
Age: 89

Re: How Come???

#1540839

Post by drjohncarpenter »

emjel wrote:Dean Martin had a big hit in the UK in '69 with Gentle On My Mind hitting #2. It reached #9 in Billboards Easy Listening Chart. Excellent track too.
Boy, the U.K. sure love their easy-listening music.


.
Dr. John Carpenter, M.D.
Stop, look and listen, baby <<--->> that's my philosophy!


sundial77
Posts: 1066
Registered for: 11 years 9 months
Has thanked: 268 times
Been thanked: 460 times

Re: How Come???

#1541171

Post by sundial77 »

Madonna appears to be the latest "age casualty". In 2005 and 2006 respectively she had number one singles in the UK with "Hung Up" and "Sorry",when she was around 47 years old. Her most recent singles haven't bothered the top 40,even with the added publicity of her Brit Award ceremony accident.




sundial77
Posts: 1066
Registered for: 11 years 9 months
Has thanked: 268 times
Been thanked: 460 times

Re: How Come???

#1541204

Post by sundial77 »

Greystoke wrote:
sundial77 wrote:Madonna appears to be the latest "age casualty". In 2005 and 2006 respectively she had number one singles in the UK with "Hung Up" and "Sorry",when she was around 47 years old. Her most recent singles haven't bothered the top 40,even with the added publicity of her Brit Award ceremony accident.
True. Although she was in the top-ten several times after the success of Hung Up and Sorry. But I wouldn't count an artist like Madonna out. She still makes good music. And I'm sure she's every bit as ambitious as she has always been. But there's so much competition today. And it's difficult to really grasp trends or predict what will be popular. And why. Especially if radio airplay and opportunities on television are favouring younger artists who have a strong and active presence.

Robbie Williams was actually lamenting the fact that he's struggling to get singles near the top of the charts, too. He's still popular, successful and making great music. His track-record is stellar. But he's fully aware of the fact that digital platforms rule the singles charts, and that he can't encourage enough interest from fans and demographics who contribute the most to hit singles. Whilst neither Robbie or Madonna have broke into that rarified group of artists who court huge viewing figures on Vevo. Which is quite surprising considering how good their videos usually are. Although Madonna does have one video with over 200 million views. And another with over 100 million. Those being Bitch I'm Madonna, featuring Nicki Minaj. And Hung Up. Robbie`s best are Candy and Feel, with 66 million and 65 million views respectively.

But there's a long trend of artists who, despite their success and popularity - especially during their commercial prime - can't always stay in the top-ten or remain guaranteed hit-makers. This comes with the territory.
That is very true indeed. I do enjoy Madonna's work and I'm a big fan of Mr Williams. Even other great acts,such as the Red Hot Chili Peppers,continue to release good singles,only for them to disappear without trace. Must be a part of being 42 but when I look at the charts these days,I don't recognise any of the artists. And I've found myself using the middle-aged battle cry of "it all sounds the same".
Even as recently as 2009-10, I still enjoyed the top 40 countdown . Time to reach for the pipe and slippers and listen to Radio 2 lol.




poormadpeter2

Re: How Come???

#1541212

Post by poormadpeter2 »

Greystoke has it pretty covered, but there were a number of high entries in the singles charts during the 1960s by those associated with jazz or standards beyond Sinatra and Dino. Sammy Davis Jr reached #11 with I Gotta Be Me in 1968, for example. Louis Armstrong's Hello Dolly was #1 in 1964. Bobby Darin returned to the charts in 1966 with If I Were a Carpenter. Meanwhile, in the UK, Doris Day reached #8 with Move Over Darling - her first top ten in the UK since 1956, but the single didn't chart in the US. Likewise, Nina Simone had three top 10 hits in the UK in 1968, but they didn't bother the charts in the US.

Sometimes these things are down to luck, and something catching on. With Sinatra it was down to a concerted effort to try and get a sound that resonated with the times, and Davis's hit also fits into that category,

But the key thing with Davis and Sinatra and Dean Martin and Bobby Darin and Satchmo was that they were regularly on TV to promote their singles (or even just promote themselves). Elvis didn't appear on the Tonight show or the Dean Martin Show or Hollywood Palace or any other variety show of the time. And that accounts for much of the reason why some of his better singles from the period didn't do as well as they should have done - and the same is true of the 1970s. TV publicity didn't seem to matter as much in the UK, and Elvis was doing better there during all stages of his career, but in the USA that publicity on TV seems to have been essential.




King Volcano

Re: How Come???

#1541264

Post by King Volcano »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Boy, the U.K. sure love their easy-listening music.
The opposite is actually true, and the above actually is nonsense, if we're going to generalise. Look at the career US vs UK album chart positions of say, David Bowie or Kate Bush, arguably the UKs most important, original and influential male / female solo artists of the past 40-50 years. The disparity is extreme and quite revealing. As for singles, even if you take as an example just two years when I was a kid, between 1980 and 1982: Bowie's Ashes to Ashes, huge and No1 or The Stranglers Golden Brown, huge and No2, Laurie Anderson O Superman, huge and No2.

Etc.



User avatar

jurasic1968
Posts: 12401
Registered for: 11 years 7 months
Has thanked: 13259 times
Been thanked: 2586 times

Re: How Come???

#1541268

Post by jurasic1968 »

peter, thanks a lot for your post. It's my opinion also. How many times Elvis promoted on TV his singles in the 60's or 70's ? 2 times in the 60's -Stuck on You/Fame and Fortune in 1960 and If I can Dream in 1968. In the 70's Steamroller Blues (Aloha)-and that's all.




brian
Posts: 17407
Registered for: 15 years 9 months
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 3828 times

Re: How Come???

#1541274

Post by brian »

jurasic1968 wrote:peter, thanks a lot for your post. It's my opinion also. How many times Elvis promoted on TV his singles in the 60's or 70's ? 2 times in the 60's -Stuck on You/Fame and Fortune in 1960 and If I can Dream in 1968. In the 70's Steamroller Blues (Aloha)-and that's all.
Well, he did have the movies in the sixties and that had to help a few of his singles and albums.


Post Reply