69er memphis session without vintage mix?

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69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1382788

Post by matilda »

one question....ist there any stereo release where there isn't that vintage mix of those memphis sessions (bass and drums on the side) ?
i prefer the more modern mix normally with centred bass and drums...so anybody can tell me?
right now i am not so sure about the "memphis record " cd.
i know they remixed it...but for me the sound is a bit thinny.
so...where is a centred bass/drumming with songs from those sessions?
thank you.




skatterbrane

Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1383176

Post by skatterbrane »

The Memphis Record CD does a great job with a more modern mix. I do not know how it sounds on headphones, but it definitely not "thinny" or "tinny" on my stereo speakers.




Juan Luis

Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1383182

Post by Juan Luis »

I recently listened to the "Memphis Record", and there are some songs that were done well. "Kentucky Rain" comes to mind now. But, it's hit and miss with others. IMO, centered drums and bass work well in the stereo spectrum only, if the drums are recorded in stereo as well. Mono drums (like these 69 sessions it seems) lose a lot when centered. Sound smaller to me. More clarity off center. The Bass was weak on "Gentle On My Mind". One of my favorite tracks. A lot of fans complained about the removal of horns (not possible inclusion really) for the remix of "Suspicious Minds". Very interesting for the collector. Cause it's very different. From the Greg Geller/Rick Rowe era. Not for purists. Fun though...
Last edited by Juan Luis on Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.




skatterbrane

Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1383195

Post by skatterbrane »

Kentucky Rain and Any Day Now are the two standouts for me.



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Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1383201

Post by elvisalisellers »

It's mastered around 6dB lower than it should be [the levels on "The Fair Is Moving On" are ridiculous], but crank up "After Loving You" and it is very good indeed.




Claus

Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1383204

Post by Claus »

elvisalisellers wrote:It's mastered around 6dB lower than it should be [the levels on "The Fair Is Moving On" are ridiculous]
There is only about 3 db headroom in that song so if you're boosting it by 6 db, it goes into serious clipping. The mastering levels are fine.



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Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

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Post by elvisalisellers »

Claus wrote:
elvisalisellers wrote:It's mastered around 6dB lower than it should be [the levels on "The Fair Is Moving On" are ridiculous]
There is only about 2.5 db headroom in that song so if you're boosting it by 6 db, it goes into serious clipping. The mastering levels are fine.
Nonsense.
I boosted "After Loving You" by 6dB on a high-end Marantz CD recorder and experienced no clipping at all.

If you really think the mastering levels are fine on 1987's The Memphis Record then you may well be suffering with Hyperacusis.




Claus

Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1383210

Post by Claus »

elvisalisellers wrote:
Claus wrote:
elvisalisellers wrote:It's mastered around 6dB lower than it should be [the levels on "The Fair Is Moving On" are ridiculous]
There is only about 2.5 db headroom in that song so if you're boosting it by 6 db, it goes into serious clipping. The mastering levels are fine.
Nonsense.
I boosted "After Loving You" by 6dB on a high-end Marantz CD recorder and experienced no clipping at all.

If you really think the mastering levels are fine on 1987's The Memphis Record then you may well be suffering with Hyperacusis.
I don't and if you are not experiencing any clipping when boosting After Loving You by 6db, it's because you can't hear it.

Here is what the waveform looks like originally:
Image

The waveform loks like this if boosted by 6db. Notice serious clipping:

Image



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Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

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Post by elvisalisellers »

Claus wrote:
elvisalisellers wrote:
Claus wrote:
elvisalisellers wrote:It's mastered around 6dB lower than it should be [the levels on "The Fair Is Moving On" are ridiculous]
There is only about 2.5 db headroom in that song so if you're boosting it by 6 db, it goes into serious clipping. The mastering levels are fine.
Nonsense.
I boosted "After Loving You" by 6dB on a high-end Marantz CD recorder and experienced no clipping at all.

If you really think the mastering levels are fine on 1987's The Memphis Record then you may well be suffering with Hyperacusis.
I don't and if you are not experiencing any clipping when boosting After Loving You by 6db, it's because you can't hear it.
So what exactly is your point?
Claus wrote:Here is what the waveform looks like originally:
Image

The waveform loks like this if boosted by 6db. Notice serious clipping:

Image
What your waveform graph amply illustrates, and confirms, is the great amount of "headroom" left available on the original CD.

You can increase dB levels without sacrificing any quality or harming the content of the recording.

Go and try another... perhaps with "The Fair Is Moving On".

Will look forward to seeing more graphs.




Claus

Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1383291

Post by Claus »

No you can't. You're sacrificing dynamics by boosting the signal because there is no headroom in the original mastering.




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Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

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Post by matilda »

skatterbrane wrote:The Memphis Record CD does a great job with a more modern mix. I do not know how it sounds on headphones, but it definitely not "thinny" or "tinny" on my stereo speakers.
don't hang too much on a typo.
anyhow, to these ears.....the sound lacks bass.
but that wasn't my point.



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Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

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Post by elvisalisellers »

Claus wrote:No you can't. You're sacrificing dynamics by boosting the signal because there is no headroom in the original mastering.
Again, total nonsense.

You can have multiple instances in a song where the 0 dB/100% peak level is reached and the audio quality is not harmed.

It was in the 90's [generally] when the reduction of a CD's actual dynamic range began, when the top/bottom of a waveform had been "flat-topped" because it ran into the proverbial brick wall.

P.S. Any luck with "The Fair Is Moving On" [TMR] waveform, yet?




Claus

Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1383317

Post by Claus »

elvisalisellers wrote:You can have multiple instances in a song where the 0 dB/100% peak level is reached and the audio quality is not harmed.
Yes, you can, but the problem with the boosted waveform is that the level is pushed beyond the 0 db ceiling which is impossible so instead of getting louder it just clips/distorts. It also results in a reduced dynamic range.

You can get away with a little clipping but the boosted waveform has thousands of clipped samples and that does harm the sound. I'll post other waveforms and sound samples later.




skatterbrane

Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1383320

Post by skatterbrane »

matilda wrote:
skatterbrane wrote:The Memphis Record CD does a great job with a more modern mix. I do not know how it sounds on headphones, but it definitely not "thinny" or "tinny" on my stereo speakers.
don't hang too much on a typo.
anyhow, to these ears.....the sound lacks bass.
but that wasn't my point.
I was not sure if it was a typo. But, I do not find it lacks bass. Some people complain it is too bass heavy.




skatterbrane

Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1383326

Post by skatterbrane »

As long as you do not have the loudest sound on a digital recording go past 0dB, and also that you do not compress the signal, dynamics does not suffer if you increase the level of a recording. However, if you reach clipping or compress a recording to prevent clipping, then dynamics are compromised.

I personally like a recording to be recorded at the highest level possible without sacrificing the dynamic range.

Headroom is an entirely different discussion as it pertains to amps, cutting heads, and various physical or electronic devices in the recording or playback chain.




skatterbrane

Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1383327

Post by skatterbrane »

Claus wrote:
elvisalisellers wrote:
Claus wrote:
elvisalisellers wrote:It's mastered around 6dB lower than it should be [the levels on "The Fair Is Moving On" are ridiculous]
There is only about 2.5 db headroom in that song so if you're boosting it by 6 db, it goes into serious clipping. The mastering levels are fine.
Nonsense.
I boosted "After Loving You" by 6dB on a high-end Marantz CD recorder and experienced no clipping at all.

If you really think the mastering levels are fine on 1987's The Memphis Record then you may well be suffering with Hyperacusis.
I don't and if you are not experiencing any clipping when boosting After Loving You by 6db, it's because you can't hear it.

Here is what the waveform looks like originally:
Image

The waveform loks like this if boosted by 6db. Notice serious clipping:

Image
This shows clipping! I would have boosted the original by only 3dB rather than 6dB.




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Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

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Post by Eggrert »

I generally prefer the mixes on TMR to the originals, even though I do agree that the sound is rather thin in places. I don't agree with the praise for KR, though - I find the MR version almost unlistenable. The Gold Records Vol. 5 mix is my go-to version, though the 2nd To None mix is quite good as well.

IMO, the standout tracks on TMR are Stranger, Power Of My Love, Wearin' That Loved On Look (also a different edit), and Rubberneckin'.




Juan Luis

Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1383438

Post by Juan Luis »

skatterbrane wrote:
matilda wrote:
skatterbrane wrote:The Memphis Record CD does a great job with a more modern mix. I do not know how it sounds on headphones, but it definitely not "thinny" or "tinny" on my stereo speakers.
don't hang too much on a typo.
anyhow, to these ears.....the sound lacks bass.
but that wasn't my point.
I was not sure if it was a typo. But, I do not find it lacks bass. Some people complain it is too bass heavy.
One thing is the overall bass of the recording. Another is the bass guitar in the mix. It is not well defined in some songs. "Gentle On My Mind" a song I love because of the bass playing among the other obvious things, is not clearly defined and low IMO in the mix. That song maybe has the version before Tommy Cogbill (March 20, 1969 overdub session) replaced it and overdubbed a great bass line. Like a song in itself. LOL..




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Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

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Post by matilda »

so...only the vintage mix so far.
hmmm...sadly.
i dislike the mixes on memphis record. they sound sterile and lacking full drums and especially deep bass.




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Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

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Post by matilda »

Juan Luis wrote:I recently listened to the "Memphis Record", and there are some songs that were done well. "Kentucky Rain" comes to mind now. But, it's hit and miss with others. IMO, centered drums and bass work well in the stereo spectrum only, if the drums are recorded in stereo as well. ...
at least the bass should be center.




Claus

Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1383450

Post by Claus »

Here are two After Loving You samples. The first is the original mastering. The second has been boosted by 6db. Both are level-matched (might be slightly inaccurate).

http://www42.zippyshare.com/v/lqR37Nmr/file.html




skatterbrane

Re: 69er memphis session without vintage mix?

#1383460

Post by skatterbrane »

Juan Luis wrote:
skatterbrane wrote:
matilda wrote:
skatterbrane wrote:The Memphis Record CD does a great job with a more modern mix. I do not know how it sounds on headphones, but it definitely not "thinny" or "tinny" on my stereo speakers.
don't hang too much on a typo.
anyhow, to these ears.....the sound lacks bass.
but that wasn't my point.
I was not sure if it was a typo. But, I do not find it lacks bass. Some people complain it is too bass heavy.
One thing is the overall bass of the recording. Another is the bass guitar in the mix. It is not well defined in some songs. "Gentle On My Mind" a song I love because of the bass playing among the other obvious things, is not clearly defined and low IMO in the mix. That song maybe has the version before Tommy Cogbill (March 20, 1969 overdub session) replaced it and overdubbed a great bass line. Like a song in itself. LOL..
That is true! There is a difference between hearing the bass guitar in the mix and the frequency balance of a recording. I think I mistake what some posters mean when they say "there is no bass" and the like.


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