"I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1349370

Post by SteamrollerBlues »

Certainly an interesting topic. Thanks for all the info, Doc!




r&b

Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1349398

Post by r&b »

poormadpeter wrote:
Dan_T wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote: Of course, that Berlin had previously heard and tacitly approved the exact same arrangementby the Drifters, on a November 1954 single released on the Atlantic label, indicated that the animosity towards Presley was personal.
Let's get this piece of hyperbole out of the way now. The Drifters' version did not have the "exact same arrangement" at all. It clearly was the arrangement Elvis based his on, but it was not the "exact same" - in fact, nowhere near the "exact same."

The opening of the Drifters take on the song starts with backing vocals - Elvis's starts with a very basic piano and guitar introduction. The backing vocals continue during The Drifters' version, but Elvis opens the song without backing vocals at all, and the backing vocals on his version are far more restrained than on The Drifters version. In fact, the work of the backing vocalists in the two versions are VERY different indeed.

In the first run-through of the song, Elvis sings the "may your days" section in a straightforward manner, but the Drifters do not - they sing this section in the same manner as Elvis's repeat of this verse.

The Drifters repeat the entire song - Elvis only repeats the second half this time employing a vocal line very similar to the Drifters).

The Drifters version contains different instrumentation, such as the use of an organ, for example.

The Drifters version ends differently to Elvis's.

The "exact same arrangement?" Don't think so.

Next!
Agree 100% ,Shane !
Thank you.
The only thing similar was Elvis taking on Clyde McPhatters style on the second verse, basically copying the way he sang it. One has to think Mr. Berlin would have hated The Drifters version as well, since they totally took his song & revamped it. If he didnt ever say anything about that version, then I would think he had a hatred for Elvis and it goes deeper than White Christmas. You must remember the 'adult' music world blamed rock and roll and Elvis specifically for totally changing the music scene in the 50's and making this new style of music dominant.




poormadpeter

Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1349402

Post by poormadpeter »

r&b wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
Dan_T wrote:
poormadpeter wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote: Of course, that Berlin had previously heard and tacitly approved the exact same arrangementby the Drifters, on a November 1954 single released on the Atlantic label, indicated that the animosity towards Presley was personal.
Let's get this piece of hyperbole out of the way now. The Drifters' version did not have the "exact same arrangement" at all. It clearly was the arrangement Elvis based his on, but it was not the "exact same" - in fact, nowhere near the "exact same."

The opening of the Drifters take on the song starts with backing vocals - Elvis's starts with a very basic piano and guitar introduction. The backing vocals continue during The Drifters' version, but Elvis opens the song without backing vocals at all, and the backing vocals on his version are far more restrained than on The Drifters version. In fact, the work of the backing vocalists in the two versions are VERY different indeed.

In the first run-through of the song, Elvis sings the "may your days" section in a straightforward manner, but the Drifters do not - they sing this section in the same manner as Elvis's repeat of this verse.

The Drifters repeat the entire song - Elvis only repeats the second half this time employing a vocal line very similar to the Drifters).

The Drifters version contains different instrumentation, such as the use of an organ, for example.

The Drifters version ends differently to Elvis's.

The "exact same arrangement?" Don't think so.

Next!
Agree 100% ,Shane !
Thank you.
The only thing similar was Elvis taking on Clyde McPhatters style on the second verse, basically copying the way he sang it. One has to think Mr. Berlin would have hated The Drifters version as well, since they totally took his song & revamped it. If he didnt ever say anything about that version, then I would think he had a hatred for Elvis and it goes deeper than White Christmas. You must remember the 'adult' music world blamed rock and roll and Elvis specifically for totally changing the music scene in the 50's and making this new style of music dominant.
Yes, the adult music world did. But Berlin's fortunes fell around 1950, not 1957.

And there is no proof as yet that Berlin had a hatred for Elvis or his version of the song. Yes, we have Walter Wager's story, but it is just that - a story. The writer never says that Wager was there at the time when Berlin heard the recording - it's just an account from Wager of the Berlin/Elvis story. Yes, it's the first account of it (seemingly), but it still appears to be false. If Berlin "immediately" got his people phoning radio stations, then that would have made the newspapers. Immediately means straight away - no time for Berlin to reconsider his position. Some of those phone calls would have been made before that could happen - and those phone calls would have made the papers/trade journals. There's no ifs and buts here. Wager's story can't be believed any more that Bill Randle could be believed in his stories about the Pied Piper film. There's not even any indication at this stage that Wager even knew Berlin in 1957 at this point!

It may well, of course, be a story that Berlin told Wager at a later date (any probably is) and Wager it took to be true and recounted it to the biographer in good faith. But just because somebody recounts a story doesn't mean it actually happened. There would be a paper trail here, and there is none...until thirty-three years after the event. It doesn't add up, and it can't be believed. What's more, despite all the interviews he gave in the mid to late 1950s, Berlin seemingly said nothing about rock 'n' roll. If he hated it so much, he would have done.

There IS a tantalising interview with the composer in Variety in May 1958 where he might have said something about current music, but I no longer have access to the archive, and am not willing to pay $40 for the privilege just to check out that interview!




poormadpeter

Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1349409

Post by poormadpeter »

To be fair, Ernst is just as entitled to take for granted an established story as anyone else. Had the previous thread not existed, there wouldn't be this in-depth discussion of it on the board, and no-one would be going back to archives only to find that nothing was reported at the time. As I said in the other thread, I was guilty of taking the story for granted when I was writing earlier in the year, so I'm certainly not thinking we should chastise anyone for doing the same. Unless whoever wrote the liner notes did some serious research of primary sources (which is unlikely, and shouldn't be expected for liner notes in most cases), then the likelihood is that the dozens of books that have repeated the story will be regurgitated there again.



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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1349509

Post by drjohncarpenter »

r&b wrote:I personally like the Drifters version best of all.
It's a wonderful recording, and no surprise it did so well on the R&B charts. And without their release, Elvis' recording would have had no template to follow.


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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1349538

Post by Mike Windgren »

Hi there!! :D :D :D.

I did no harm! smt179. Bye for now :smt006.


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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1349541

Post by drjohncarpenter »

norrie wrote:Thanks Doc.I was reading about Berlin's dislike for Elvis' version recently in the FTD book The Best of British and it's nice to have some extra information.Nice work.


norrie

PS

Dig the topic title !
Choosing the title was one of the funnest parts of the hours I spent creating this thing!

Thanks for the kind thoughts, they are appreciated.


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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1349543

Post by mike edwards66 »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
norrie wrote:Thanks Doc.I was reading about Berlin's dislike for Elvis' version recently in the FTD book The Best of British and it's nice to have some extra information.Nice work.


norrie

PS

Dig the topic title !
Choosing the title was one of the funnest parts of the hours I spent creating this thing!

Sure sounds like fun!


















































:wink:


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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1349545

Post by Mitch »

Great job Doc, as usual,

I enjoyed reading it.

Thank you for your time and effort in putting this together for us.

::rocks



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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1349647

Post by drjohncarpenter »

a mess of polk salad wrote:Fabulous stuff doc. You put a great deal of effort into it and some great photos and articles.

Happy Christmas Image
I appreciate your kind thoughts, I did indeed put a lot of effort and time into creating this topic.

For those who are able to read with care, and I can see exactly who they are, there is a lot to take away, and it's nice that FECC is the place where you'll find it.

::rocks


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Dr. John Carpenter, M.D.
Stop, look and listen, baby <<--->> that's my philosophy!


poormadpeter

Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1349778

Post by poormadpeter »

The following article from the Ottawa Citizen was posted by me on FECC back in March. Interestingly, the review takes the complete opposite view of the album - instead of thinking that the album is in some way sacrilegious, it moans that Elvis has been tamed for the album. Note no mention here of Berlin disapproving of White Christmas.
ottawa citizen dec 13 1957 p30.JPG
One article that certainly is NOT available on the web, other than through paying for Variety archives, is the following, about a proposed ban of the complete album in Canada on all Vancouver radio stations, as well as one in Calgary. Again, no mention of Berlin's involvement. Dec 4, 1957, p. 57.
variety dec 4 1957 p 57.JPG
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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1349788

Post by mike edwards66 »

poormadpeter wrote:The following article from the Ottawa Citizen was posted by me on FECC back in March. Interestingly, the review takes the complete opposite view of the album - instead of thinking that the album is in some way sacrilegious, it moans that Elvis has been tamed for the album. Note no mention here of Berlin disapproving of White Christmas.
Interesting article, bit snotty........."the wonder is not that he did it badly but that he did it at all".


drjohncarpenter wrote:For those who are able to read with care, and I can see exactly who they are.........
Final warning?


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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1349836

Post by drjohncarpenter »

Mike DK wrote:Thanks for posting Doc :)
Thank you for reading and enjoying this topic. Happy new year!


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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1349841

Post by elvis-fan »

Great topic and insight, John. Just another piece of the Presley puzzle and one of the reasons I enjoy this forum!! Happy New Year!! :cheers:



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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1350201

Post by drjohncarpenter »

r&b wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:Thank you!

Bing Crosby's "White Christmas" is the definitive recording of the song, an evergreen in every sense of the word. But I too love the playful nature of the 1957 Presley master, and the 1954 Drifters single which so strongly influenced him. And Elvis does very well with another Crosby standard, "I'll Be Home For Christmas (If Only In My Dreams)." It was originally the B-side of Bing's "White Christmas" single. I remember one time my mom heard me playing Elvis' recording, and she came in crying, she was so moved by his beautiful vocal.
I think this is the best non-rock and roll, traditional Christmas song Elvis ever recorded. It is very moving, simple, and hits home.
It's right up there for me as well. Sincere, moving, he gets it. The 1971 recording of "Holly Leaves and Christmas Trees" betrays a similar melancholy and is right at the top of that list as well.


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Stop, look and listen, baby <<--->> that's my philosophy!


r&b

Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1350258

Post by r&b »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
r&b wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:Thank you!

Bing Crosby's "White Christmas" is the definitive recording of the song, an evergreen in every sense of the word. But I too love the playful nature of the 1957 Presley master, and the 1954 Drifters single which so strongly influenced him. And Elvis does very well with another Crosby standard, "I'll Be Home For Christmas (If Only In My Dreams)." It was originally the B-side of Bing's "White Christmas" single. I remember one time my mom heard me playing Elvis' recording, and she came in crying, she was so moved by his beautiful vocal.
I think this is the best non-rock and roll, traditional Christmas song Elvis ever recorded. It is very moving, simple, and hits home.
It's right up there for me as well. Sincere, moving, he gets it. The 1971 recording of "Holly Leaves and Christmas Trees" betrays a similar melancholy and is right at the top of that list as well.
We think alike on these songs. Holly is my favorite on the 1971 LP, second only to Merry Christmas Baby. Yes it has that same aura about it. I always preferred original Christmas songs over remakes of the standard ones. If I want to hear those, I opt for the classic versions, Nat King Cole, Bing, Brenda Lee, Bobby Helms, Andy Williams, Perry Como, and yes Elvis on Blue Christmas. I discovered a great new album this year, Gold & Green by Sugarland, a mix of traditional & original tunes. Jennifer Nettles will knock your socks off on 'Comin Home'. What a great song.



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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1350319

Post by drjohncarpenter »

SteamrollerBlues wrote:Certainly an interesting topic. Thanks for all the info, Doc!
I appreciate your kind words. It's fun to add another piece to the puzzle, and uncovering the source of the Berlin story was an unexpected bonus. Only on FECC!


::rocks


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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1350329

Post by poormadpeter »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
SteamrollerBlues wrote:Certainly an interesting topic. Thanks for all the info, Doc!
I appreciate your kind words. It's fun to add another piece to the puzzle, and uncovering the source of the Berlin story was an unexpected bonus. Only on FECC!

::rocks
Well, only in a book written 24 years ago, actually!



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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1350465

Post by drjohncarpenter »

r&b wrote:The only thing similar was Elvis taking on Clyde McPhatters style on the second verse, basically copying the way he sang it. One has to think Mr. Berlin would have hated The Drifters version as well, since they totally took his song & revamped it. If he didnt ever say anything about that version, then I would think he had a hatred for Elvis and it goes deeper than White Christmas. You must remember the 'adult' music world blamed rock and roll and Elvis specifically for totally changing the music scene in the 50's and making this new style of music dominant.
This is one of the points I make in my opening post. Irving Berlin's dislike of Presley's cover is personal.

And although some took my statement about the Presley recording in literal fashion, and decided to bash me with pillows, it is a fact that without the Drifters hit single from 1954, there is no RCA album cut in 1957. Elvis clearly pulls from that R&B hit, and it's not just his homage to Clyde McPhatter where we hear it, it's in the tempo, choice of instrumentation, and most importantly in the vocal nonchalance from start to finish.

Happy New Year, r&b.


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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

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Post by HoneyTalkNelson »

IRVING BERLIN
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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1350477

Post by George Smith »

Nice original post, John, and Thank You to all contributors to the discussion.

Berlin was, without question, a control freak when it came to the financial side of his creativity and kept a fanatically keen eye on all of his copyrights.

He certainly seemed to have no problem with either The Ravens or The Drifters adapting his biggest song, and as Irving himself acknowledged, Elvis wasn't the first person to be accused of "stealing" from black music.

So what made the composer so upset regarding Elvis' version which was so obviously indebted the vocal groups' previous arrangements?

What could possibly have so upset the diminutive genius about this one individual recording?

Can you imagine him sitting in his New York office one Autumn morning in 1957 taking a 'phone call from some upstart publisher's assistant asking maybe would Mr Berlin like to consider cutting a deal on a new recording of his most successful copyright?

Because that's pretty much what Hill & Range did with almost every other non-catalogue song Elvis recorded ... "Well, if you won't cut us in, Mr Berlin, maybe we just won't release that record ..."

Can you imagine how Mr Berlin might have reacted to a 'phone call of that nature ...

I wonder ...



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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1350481

Post by drjohncarpenter »

George Smith wrote:Nice original post, John, and Thank You to all contributors to the discussion.

Berlin was, without question, a control freak when it came to the financial side of his creativity and kept a fanatically keen eye on all of his copyrights.

He certainly seemed to have no problem with either The Ravens or The Drifters adapting his biggest song, and as Irving himself acknowledged, Elvis wasn't the first person to be accused of "stealing" from black music.

So what made the composer so upset regarding Elvis' version which was so obviously indebted the vocal groups' previous arrangements?

What could possibly have so upset the diminutive genius about this one individual recording?

Can you imagine him sitting in his New York office one Autumn morning in 1957 taking a 'phone call from some upstart publisher's assistant asking maybe would Mr Berlin like to consider cutting a deal on a new recording of his most successful copyright?

Because that's pretty much what Hill & Range did with almost every other non-catalogue song Elvis recorded ... "Well, if you won't cut us in, Mr Berlin, maybe we just won't release that record ..."

Can you imagine how Mr Berlin might have reacted to a 'phone call of that nature ...

I wonder ...
Given the enormous success of "White Christmas" since its release in 1942 by Bing Crosby, and at least a dozen covers in its wake by artists as popular as Frank Sinatra, Perry Como, Ernest Tubb and Patti Page, it would have taken enormous cojones for someone attached to Presley to call the songwriter in late 1957 and suggest he give up a piece of his song. Far more likely, the mere fact that Elvis represented the new music, and had met with a great deal of negative publicity since his emergence in mid-1956, was what caused Berlin's rancor. We shouldn't forget that Elvis' late October shows in Los Angeles had created a controversy in the press, with some critics calling his act obscene. It's not impossible to imagine Irving read this in his paper and took note.


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r&b

Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1350542

Post by r&b »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
r&b wrote:The only thing similar was Elvis taking on Clyde McPhatters style on the second verse, basically copying the way he sang it. One has to think Mr. Berlin would have hated The Drifters version as well, since they totally took his song & revamped it. If he didnt ever say anything about that version, then I would think he had a hatred for Elvis and it goes deeper than White Christmas. You must remember the 'adult' music world blamed rock and roll and Elvis specifically for totally changing the music scene in the 50's and making this new style of music dominant.
This is one of the points I make in my opening post. Irving Berlin's dislike of Presley's cover is personal.

And although some took my statement about the Presley recording in literal fashion, and decided to bash me with pillows, it is a fact that without the Drifters hit single from 1954, there is no RCA album cut in 1957. Elvis clearly pulls from that R&B hit, and it's not just his homage to Clyde McPhatter where we hear it, it's in the tempo, choice of instrumentation, and most importantly in the vocal nonchalance from start to finish.

Happy New Year, r&b.

Thanks. Happy New New to you and all that make this board a fun place to visit. Thanks for all the great knowledge you & others provide.



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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1350730

Post by drjohncarpenter »

Mitch wrote:Great job Doc, as usual,

I enjoyed reading it.

Thank you for your time and effort in putting this together for us.

::rocks
A compliment from you is a compliment indeed. I hope you had a great holiday!


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Re: "I'll Have A White Christmas, Without You" !

#1352162

Post by mysterytrainrideson »

Good topic, Doc.

Berlin's dislike for the song is well known...i've read about it before...thanks for supplying the evidence.

I love both The Drifters and Elvis' version of the song.

Bing's original is the all-time classic, it's one of those songs you will hear until you die.


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