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Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:18 pm

promiseland wrote:Interesting read.
Alan Hanson seems to be leaning toward a review of negative intent, although we are all aware the Beatles were on fire in '64, Alan seems to mis-credit a couple of Presley entries such as one he mentions here: "Roustabout, Elvis’s third feature film of 1964, opens nationwide. It marked the first of six consecutive years that Presley would release three pictures per year."
But yet fails to mention the LP went to #1 of that year - being the year of his subject Abdication --> 1964.


It's not negative at all -- just honest. Alan Hanson is as big an Elvis fan as anyone you may meet. And his book, cited in my opening post, is a revelation about Elvis on tour in 1957, well-written, scrupulously researched and totally essential.

Hanson did not fail to mention Roustabout as #1 in 1964 ... because the LP was not #1 that year.

It topped Billboard's Top LPs chart for one week, on January 2, 1965:



Billboard Jan 02 1965 p12.JPG
Billboard - January 2, 1965
Note: Beatles '65 went from #98 to #1 in a single week to take over the top slot on January 9.
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Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:26 pm

jurasic1968 wrote:Exactly. So, from Good Luck Charm (1962) to his death (1977), Elvis had only one more number one hit in US (Suspicious Minds in 1969). 15 years! This speaks a lot how far Elvis has fallen from his 1956-1962 golden era of the charts.


r&b wrote:No, number 3 is not bad at all, but from this point on, he only had 2 hits in the top 10 until 1969. Bossa Nova Baby later that same year, and Crying In the Chapel, (old material and a fluke hit) in 1965. This is not competing with the Beatles or any of the music of the 60's. Elvis took a back seat and to my school mates, he was no longer a leading music star, but now considered strictly a film star. No one in my school bought his records after 1964.


All fair points, but I consider "Burning Love" a #1 hit, as per CashBox's November 11, 1972 issue.
Last edited by drjohncarpenter on Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:48 pm

Mike Windgren wrote:Hi there!! :D :D :D.

brian wrote:
Mike Windgren wrote:Hi there!! :D :D :D.

brian wrote:Instead he had zero number one hits in the U.S. in 1963


Yes indeed, but You´re The Devil In Disguise was a major hit in 1963 all over the world, so that´s not bad at all :wink:. Bye for now :smt006.


Alan Hanson's article is talking about songs on the U.S. charts.


Yes I know, the screen shot was posted just for reference :roll:. The song reached the nº 3 spot on the U.S charts and that´s not bad at all. Bye for now :smt006.


That's still not the point of Alan Hanson's article or the purpose of this discussion.

My point was that Elvis probably could have pocketed a few more number one hits on the U.S. charts but for a variety of reasons it didn't happen.

''Devil in disguise'' hitting #3 is all well and good but nothing beats a #1 single.

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:56 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
jurasic1968 wrote:Exactly. So, from Good Luck Charm (1962) to his death (1977), Elvis had only one more number one hit in US (Suspicious Minds in 1969). 15 years! This speaks a lot how far Elvis has fallen from his 1956-1962 golden era of the charts.


r&b wrote:No, number 3 is not bad at all, but from this point on, he only had 2 hits in the top 10 until 1969. Bossa Nova Baby later that same year, and Crying In the Chapel, (old material and a fluke hit) in 1965. This is not competing with the Beatles or any of the music of the 60's. Elvis took a back seat and to my school mates, he was no longer a leading music star, but now considered strictly a film star. No one in my school bought his records after 1964.


All fair points, but I consider "Burning Love" a #1 hit, as per Cash Box's November 11, 1972 issue.


I always wondered how a record can be #1 on Cashbox but not on Billboard. Why the difference?

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:09 pm

They used a different methodology.

Neither Billboard or Cashbox have ever come out publicly and said exactly how they compiled the charts.

All I know is that it was a mixture of sales and airplay.

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:43 am

I worked in the Billboard chart department for several years in the early 1980's. In fact, I was the first Video Chart Manager.

If the methodology for placing a song at number 1 was as loose in the 1960's as it was twenty years later, anybody could have had a number one hit record.

Basically, it boiled down to one person reviewing the statistics and making a decision. Supposedly, personal bias was not to interfere but who knows?

Perhaps the person making those chart decisions in 1963/64 was not an Elvis fan?

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:24 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:Hanson did not fail to mention Roustabout as #1 in 1964 ... because the LP was not #1 that year.

It topped Billboard's Top LPs chart for one week, on January 2, 1965:


I stand corrected. I always thought It peaked in '64 .
We learn something new everyday in the Elvis world. :o

Seems the LP made a nice 30th birthday surprise anyway!

Thanks for the additional info Doc. :wink:
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Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:03 am

HoneyTalkNelson wrote:I worked in the Billboard chart department for several years in the early 1980's. In fact, I was the first Video Chart Manager.

If the methodology for placing a song at number 1 was as loose in the 1960's as it was twenty years later, anybody could have had a number one hit record.

Basically, it boiled down to one person reviewing the statistics and making a decision. Supposedly, personal bias was not to interfere but who knows?

Perhaps the person making those chart decisions in 1963/64 was not an Elvis fan?


Someone at Billboard had a vendetta against Elvis and all his great record releases in 1963-64? The suggestion is absurd.

The above example of Beatles '65 debuting on the LP chart at #98 and zooming to #1 in week two -- an astonishing leap -- is undeniable evidence of their across-the-board popularity.

No one at the nation's top record industry magazine plotted to deny the tsunami that was 1964's British Invasion.

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:05 am

promiseland wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:Hanson did not fail to mention Roustabout as #1 in 1964 ... because the LP was not #1 that year.

It topped Billboard's Top LPs chart for one week, on January 2, 1965:


I stand corrected. I always thought It peaked in '64 .
We learn something new everyday in the Elvis world. :o

Seems the LP made a nice 30th birthday surprise anyway!

Thanks for the additional info Doc. :wink:

Roustabout chart.JPG


You're welcome. If you do not have Hanson's book, it is highly recommended.
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Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:19 am

Roustabout ended its one week on top on January 2. 'Week ending' dates are commonly cited when referring to charts, but that's not when the album/single achieved its position.

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:43 am

TJ wrote:Roustabout ended its one week on top on January 2. 'Week ending' dates are commonly cited when referring to charts, but that's not when the album/single achieved its position.


No, it ended its stay on January 8, 1965 -- Elvis' 30th birthday.

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:42 am

Someone at Billboard had a vendetta against Elvis and all his great record releases in 1963-64? The suggestion is absurd.


Not at all. The Beatles were considered by many to be the darlings of the media and could do no wrong. It's entirely possible that some of that blind bias translated to their chart position placements at Billboard during that time.

The person who took over the Video Chart Manager position after I moved onto greener professional pastures had a crush on a certain popular female exercise instructor. He made sure that her videos achieved greater success on the chart than they actually deserved. They also stayed on the chart long after they had stopped selling.

It would not have been difficult to manipulate chart numbers. Such things DO happen, you know.

After my time at the magazine, I was always amused (and somewhat disappointed) that so much significance is placed on the sanctity of the charts.

Live a long life and prosper. The truth will out...

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:15 am

The charts are essential for a singer, if we like it or not. Elvis after Roustabout (a mediocre soundtrack) had only one more number one LP (Aloha from Hawaii), unfortunately. This is also RCA's mistake because they didn't promote Elvis albums enough.

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:56 am

r&b wrote:No one in my school bought his records after 1964.


Crikey, I didn't know the music buying habits of my fellow classmates let alone the whole school!! :P

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:31 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
TJ wrote:Roustabout ended its one week on top on January 2. 'Week ending' dates are commonly cited when referring to charts, but that's not when the album/single achieved its position.


No, it ended its stay on January 8, 1965 -- Elvis' 30th birthday.


What does 'week ending' refer to if it doesn't mean that the chart renews after that date? Then again, this is Billboard, so logic isn't necessarily the name of the game.

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:46 pm

HoneyTalkNelson wrote:
Someone at Billboard had a vendetta against Elvis and all his great record releases in 1963-64? The suggestion is absurd.


Not at all. The Beatles were considered by many to be the darlings of the media and could do no wrong. It's entirely possible that some of that blind bias translated to their chart position placements at Billboard during that time.

The person who took over the Video Chart Manager position after I moved onto greener professional pastures had a crush on a certain popular female exercise instructor. He made sure that her videos achieved greater success on the chart than they actually deserved. They also stayed on the chart long after they had stopped selling.

It would not have been difficult to manipulate chart numbers. Such things DO happen, you know.

After my time at the magazine, I was always amused (and somewhat disappointed) that so much significance is placed on the sanctity of the charts.

Live a long life and prosper. The truth will out...

Very interesting read and also a confirmation of what I have believed for a long time.

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:18 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:The above example of Beatles '65 debuting on the LP chart at #98 and zooming to #1 in week two -- an astonishing leap -- is undeniable evidence of their across-the-board popularity.

How come the album debuted only at #98? Pre-orders? Bad promotion? What was the release date of that album? Thanks in advance.

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:19 pm

If BEATLES '65 debuted at a better number (say 40) the jump to number 1 and the "dethroning" of an Elvis album on his 30th birthday (that coincidentally hit the top spot for one week only) would seem much less dramatic.

Ironic how just 16 months earlier, Billboard stated his chart success was "unmatchable."

Folks, please remove your blinders. Chart manipulation has been going on for a VERY long time!

It continues today. Isn't it true that Billboard does not recognize Elvis' earliest chart placings in 1956?

Also, consider how Elvis was treated in the press during his breakthrough year and compare that to the Beatles in 1964.

Think about it...

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:44 pm

Blinders or not, we cannot disguise the fact that Elvis became in the middle 60's a shadow of it's former self. Like Steve Binder said to him in May 1968 when Elvis asked him what he think about his career. Steve told him bluntly " I don't think you have a career now days". That's a fact, not the image of the Beatles or the policy of Bilboard or other newspapers. Elvis with his soundtrack mediocre music became a has been and it was obvious from 1964 to 1968 to critics, fans and newspapers.

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:49 pm

Nobody stays on top forever, my friend.

During the 1964-1968 period, his movies were still immensely popular and the early TV network airings of his films were top rated.

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:53 pm

Xaykev wrote:
HoneyTalkNelson wrote:
Someone at Billboard had a vendetta against Elvis and all his great record releases in 1963-64? The suggestion is absurd.


Not at all. The Beatles were considered by many to be the darlings of the media and could do no wrong. It's entirely possible that some of that blind bias translated to their chart position placements at Billboard during that time.

The person who took over the Video Chart Manager position after I moved onto greener professional pastures had a crush on a certain popular female exercise instructor. He made sure that her videos achieved greater success on the chart than they actually deserved. They also stayed on the chart long after they had stopped selling.

It would not have been difficult to manipulate chart numbers. Such things DO happen, you know.

After my time at the magazine, I was always amused (and somewhat disappointed) that so much significance is placed on the sanctity of the charts.

Live a long life and prosper. The truth will out...

Very interesting read and also a confirmation of what I have believed for a long time.


It's a confirmation of nothing.

You just take comfort in an absurd, unsubstantiated theory because, even after all these years, you are one of a small number of fans who simply cannot accept the fact that Elvis almost completely tanked his career in the same period where the British Invasion, led by the Beatles, dominated airplay, sales, charts, and remade popular culture -- as Presley had done in 1956-57.

Luckily, it is clear that most members here -- and historian Alan Hanson -- accept and embrace these facts, and enjoy the best of what both of these amazing artists, Elvis Presley and the Beatles, brought to us.

The greater the truth, the greater the libel, so they say. ;-)

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:58 pm

jurasic1968 wrote:Blinders or not, we cannot disguise the fact that Elvis became in the middle 60's a shadow of it's former self. Like Steve Binder said to him in May 1968 when Elvis asked him what he think about his career. Steve told him bluntly " I don't think you have a career now days". That's a fact, not the image of the Beatles or the policy of Bilboard or other newspapers. Elvis with his soundtrack mediocre music became a has been and it was obvious from 1964 to 1968 to critics, fans and newspapers.


Exactly.

And because Elvis had, in essence, left the game, one cannot even say what he might have accomplished if he had tried.

But he didn't try -- he retreated. What a waste!

Thank God for Steve Binder in 1968 and Chips Moman in 1969, who challenged our hero, and did not feed his ego with bs.

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:21 pm

HoneyTalkNelson wrote:If BEATLES '65 debuted at a better number (say 40) the jump to number 1 and the "dethroning" of an Elvis album on his 30th birthday (that coincidentally hit the top spot for one week only) would seem much less dramatic.


The Billboard album chart is different from the singles chart as it's based entirely on sales.

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:02 pm

Food for thought: Elvis' biggest movie since BLUE HAWAII is setting the boxoffice on fire across the country in the summer of 1964 and yet the title tune, one his best, doesn't even make the Top 20.

Think about it...

Re: 1964 … The Year Elvis Was Dethroned as King of the Chart

Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:20 pm

HoneyTalkNelson wrote:Food for thought: Elvis' biggest movie since BLUE HAWAII is setting the boxoffice on fire across the country in the summer of 1964 and yet the title tune, one his best, doesn't even make the Top 20.

Think about it...


That movie got a lot of TV & Radio promotion from what I can remember (and not for the music) and there were also a lot of Ann-Margret fans don't forget. The single didn't sell because Elvis' previous records were not very good and fans stopped automatically buying his records. As I have stated before, I was the only one I knew buying Elvis records by 1964 after the British Invasion. I agree, VLV is a great song, and I was surprised how little a hit it was, but in 1964 his music was fading from the airwaves, and DJs no longer got excited about a new Elvis single as they once did. And speaking of Billboard, each new single & LP was given a full page ad, usually on the back side of the front page, just like in the 50's. I have the issues.