Mystery Train/I Forgot To Remember To Forget.

[mysterytrainrideson]

Anyone who knows or has all the original classic Sun 45's, will know that the first four releases have these very distinctive three "push marks" under the label that make a perfect triangle. The "push marks" are caused by three little round metal upright prongs that the disc comes down on when being made at the pressing plant, then the label comes down after and is compressed securely and firmly to the disc. This is, how you tell an original Elvis Sun by looking for the "push marks".

However, the original classic Sun 223, doesn't have these "push marks" the reason being, is because a different pressing plant was used for Sun 223. This makes it the hardest one to authenticate for the serious collector.

Why was a different pressing plant used for this classic Presley record? Why didn't Sam use his regular "plastic products" in Memphis? Anyone have any background information on it?

[mysterytrainrideson]

Gee, thank you sooo much for your wonderful responses! Doesn't anyone know an interesting post when they read one? I think the Doc will probably be able to post some interesting info for me. Come on Doc, lets be having you!!

[r&b]

This IS a very interesting post as I consider Mystery Train in the top 5 records of all time. I have also wondered the same thing about the push marks, so sorry I don't have an answer for this. Perhaps someone will. Just be very careful when buying this Sun classic!
BTW, Paul Simon has called this the greatest rock and roll record of all time!

[Mike Windgren]

Hi there!! .

Gee, thank you sooo much for your wonderful responses! Doesn't anyone know an interesting post when they read one? I think the Doc will probably be able to post some interesting info for me. Come on Doc, lets be having you!!

Sorry, I am not a Sun expert, but I m sure there are some over here . Bye for now .

[mysterytrainrideson]

This IS a very interesting post as I consider Mystery Train in the top 5 records of all time. I have also wondered the same thing about the push marks, so sorry I don't have an answer for this. Perhaps someone will. Just be very careful when buying this Sun classic!
BTW, Paul Simon has called this the greatest rock and roll record of all time!

Thanks r&b. Yes, "Mystery Train" is certainly in the top 5 of best Presley tracks. According to Ken Sharps excellent "Vegas '69" book, british music writer Ray Connolly, who wrote for the "London Evening Standard" was there in Vegas for the first shows in '69. He returned to England a couple of days later and spoke, very excitingly, to John Lennon about the shows on the phone, all Lennon wanted to know was, "did he do "Mystery Train"? Gotta love John, he was a cool guy with good taste in music!!

[mysterytrainrideson]

Anybody got any info to my post?

[mysterytrainrideson]

Bob Dylan also asked Ray Connolly, "did he do Mystery Train?"

[drjohncarpenter]

Anyone who knows or has all the original classic Sun 45's, will know that the first four releases have these very distinctive three "push marks" under the label that make a perfect triangle. The "push marks" are caused by three little round metal upright prongs that the disc comes down on when being made at the pressing plant, then the label comes down after and is compressed securely and firmly to the disc. This is, how you tell an original Elvis Sun by looking for the "push marks".

However, the original classic Sun 223, doesn't have these "push marks" the reason being, is because a different pressing plant was used for Sun 223. This makes it the hardest one to authenticate for the serious collector.

Why was a different pressing plant used for this classic Presley record? Why didn't Sam use his regular "plastic products" in Memphis? Anyone have any background information on it?

Sam Phillips apparently used both his local pressing plant and the M.S.I. Company, a Philadelphia pressing plant. It handled overflow orders from Sun Records, not to mention similar requests from the Imperial and Specialty labels. Obviously, by August 1955, Elvis Presley was selling more units than Sun could handle locally.

Read about this and more at the Elvis Presley Record Research Database:

Mystery Train / I Forgot to Remember to Forget | elvisrecords.us
http://www.elvisrecords.us/sun-mystery-train-i-forgot-to-remember-to-forget/

[mysterytrainrideson]

Anyone who knows or has all the original classic Sun 45's, will know that the first four releases have these very distinctive three "push marks" under the label that make a perfect triangle. The "push marks" are caused by three little round metal upright prongs that the disc comes down on when being made at the pressing plant, then the label comes down after and is compressed securely and firmly to the disc. This is, how you tell an original Elvis Sun by looking for the "push marks".

However, the original classic Sun 223, doesn't have these "push marks" the reason being, is because a different pressing plant was used for Sun 223. This makes it the hardest one to authenticate for the serious collector.

Why was a different pressing plant used for this classic Presley record? Why didn't Sam use his regular "plastic products" in Memphis? Anyone have any background information on it?

Sam Phillips apparently used both his local pressing plant and the M.S.I. Company, a Philadelphia pressing plant. It handled overflow orders from Sun Records, not to mention similar requests from the Imperial and Specialty labels. Obviously, by August 1955, Elvis Presley was selling more units than Sun could handle locally.

Read about this and more at the Elvis Presley Record Research Database:

Mystery Train / I Forgot to Remember to Forget | elvisrecords.us
http://www.elvisrecords.us/sun-mystery-train-i-forgot-to-remember-to-forget/

Thanks Doc, your the best. You know a good subject when you see one!......

Nice link you posted there. What caught my attention was that RCA pressed "Mystery Train"/"I Forgot To Remember To Forget" again as a 45rpm in 1959 on their Gold Standard Serious. Never know this or even seen a copy and that goes for the orange label one too. If i ever see these i'll add them to my collection. Thanks Doc.

Paul.

[JerryNodak]

Read and learn wih the "Doc" (and his supporting cast). "Mystery Train" is my favorite SUN song.

[drjohncarpenter]

Anyone who knows or has all the original classic Sun 45's, will know that the first four releases have these very distinctive three "push marks" under the label that make a perfect triangle. The "push marks" are caused by three little round metal upright prongs that the disc comes down on when being made at the pressing plant, then the label comes down after and is compressed securely and firmly to the disc. This is, how you tell an original Elvis Sun by looking for the "push marks".

However, the original classic Sun 223, doesn't have these "push marks" the reason being, is because a different pressing plant was used for Sun 223. This makes it the hardest one to authenticate for the serious collector.

Why was a different pressing plant used for this classic Presley record? Why didn't Sam use his regular "plastic products" in Memphis? Anyone have any background information on it?

Sam Phillips apparently used both his local pressing plant and the M.S.I. Company, a Philadelphia pressing plant. It handled overflow orders from Sun Records, not to mention similar requests from the Imperial and Specialty labels. Obviously, by August 1955, Elvis Presley was selling more units than Sun could handle locally.

Read about this and more at the Elvis Presley Record Research Database:

Mystery Train / I Forgot to Remember to Forget | elvisrecords.us
http://www.elvisrecords.us/sun-mystery-train-i-forgot-to-remember-to-forget/

Thanks Doc, your the best. You know a good subject when you see one!......

Nice link you posted there. What caught my attention was that RCA pressed "Mystery Train"/"I Forgot To Remember To Forget" again as a 45rpm in 1959 on their Gold Standard Serious. Never know this or even seen a copy and that goes for the orange label one too. If i ever see these i'll add them to my collection. Thanks Doc.

Paul.

Most internet sites seem to only have a scan of a late 1970s edition of this single, but I believe this is it:

590300_RCA 447-0600_Presley.JPG

Elvis Presley "Mystery Train" (RCA 447-0600 "Gold Standard" series, March 1959)
Note: Scotty and Bill have been dropped from the credits!

[mysterytrainrideson]

Just for the record, in my collection of original Elvis 45's, i have various copies, from around the world, of "Mystery Train"/"I Forgot To Remember To Forget" same A/B side as the original Sun 45.

I thought i'd share with you what i've got. I hope you like it...sadly, i don't have the original Sun 45, yet!

USA. RCA 46-6357 dog on top, in orig sleeve. Mint.
GERMAN. RCA black label 47-6357 silver tri centre, in orig sleeve. Mint.
CANADA RCA 47-6357 blue RCA Victor label. Ex.
AUSTRALIA. 10131 promo white label in orig sleeve. Mint.
UK. HMV 7MC 42, gold lettering. The record itself is mint, but it has the "Tony" written in very small capital letters in the center of the record.
JAPAN. ES-5035 1st ever Elvis 45 to be released in japan. Ex
NORWAY. RCA 47-6357. My copy is in very poor condition. Very little is known what was released in Norway, so i bought this for £70 for the rarity of it.

[mysterytrainrideson]

Anyone who knows or has all the original classic Sun 45's, will know that the first four releases have these very distinctive three "push marks" under the label that make a perfect triangle. The "push marks" are caused by three little round metal upright prongs that the disc comes down on when being made at the pressing plant, then the label comes down after and is compressed securely and firmly to the disc. This is, how you tell an original Elvis Sun by looking for the "push marks".

However, the original classic Sun 223, doesn't have these "push marks" the reason being, is because a different pressing plant was used for Sun 223. This makes it the hardest one to authenticate for the serious collector.

Why was a different pressing plant used for this classic Presley record? Why didn't Sam use his regular "plastic products" in Memphis? Anyone have any background information on it?

Sam Phillips apparently used both his local pressing plant and the M.S.I. Company, a Philadelphia pressing plant. It handled overflow orders from Sun Records, not to mention similar requests from the Imperial and Specialty labels. Obviously, by August 1955, Elvis Presley was selling more units than Sun could handle locally.

Read about this and more at the Elvis Presley Record Research Database:

Mystery Train / I Forgot to Remember to Forget | elvisrecords.us
http://www.elvisrecords.us/sun-mystery-train-i-forgot-to-remember-to-forget/

Thanks Doc, your the best. You know a good subject when you see one!......

Nice link you posted there. What caught my attention was that RCA pressed "Mystery Train"/"I Forgot To Remember To Forget" again as a 45rpm in 1959 on their Gold Standard Serious. Never know this or even seen a copy and that goes for the orange label one too. If i ever see these i'll add them to my collection. Thanks Doc.

Paul.

Most internet sites seem to only have a scan of a late 1970s edition of this single, but I believe this is it:

590300_RCA 447-0600_Presley.JPG

Elvis Presley "Mystery Train" (RCA 447-0600 "Gold Standard" series, March 1959)
Note: Scotty and Bill have been dropped from the credits!

Was this released with a picture sleeve, i wonder?

[drjohncarpenter]

Anyone who knows or has all the original classic Sun 45's, will know that the first four releases have these very distinctive three "push marks" under the label that make a perfect triangle. The "push marks" are caused by three little round metal upright prongs that the disc comes down on when being made at the pressing plant, then the label comes down after and is compressed securely and firmly to the disc. This is, how you tell an original Elvis Sun by looking for the "push marks".

However, the original classic Sun 223, doesn't have these "push marks" the reason being, is because a different pressing plant was used for Sun 223. This makes it the hardest one to authenticate for the serious collector.

Why was a different pressing plant used for this classic Presley record? Why didn't Sam use his regular "plastic products" in Memphis? Anyone have any background information on it?

Sam Phillips apparently used both his local pressing plant and the M.S.I. Company, a Philadelphia pressing plant. It handled overflow orders from Sun Records, not to mention similar requests from the Imperial and Specialty labels. Obviously, by August 1955, Elvis Presley was selling more units than Sun could handle locally.

Read about this and more at the Elvis Presley Record Research Database:

Mystery Train / I Forgot to Remember to Forget | elvisrecords.us
http://www.elvisrecords.us/sun-mystery-train-i-forgot-to-remember-to-forget/

Thanks Doc, your the best. You know a good subject when you see one!......

Nice link you posted there. What caught my attention was that RCA pressed "Mystery Train"/"I Forgot To Remember To Forget" again as a 45rpm in 1959 on their Gold Standard Serious. Never know this or even seen a copy and that goes for the orange label one too. If i ever see these i'll add them to my collection. Thanks Doc.

Paul.

Most internet sites seem to only have a scan of a late 1970s edition of this single, but I believe this is it:

590300_RCA 447-0600_Presley.JPG

Elvis Presley "Mystery Train" (RCA 447-0600 "Gold Standard" series, March 1959)
Note: Scotty and Bill have been dropped from the credits!

Was this released with a picture sleeve, i wonder?

Don't believe so.

[promiseland]

There are 3 distinctive ways to tell Authentic Original 223 SUN 45/78rpm's

1: First is with the label itself, the boots are much brighter and glossier.

2: As seen in the second, third, and fourth pictures below, all the original Sun 45's are "Tight Banded" there usually is as much trail off area as groove area (the run-out deadwax ). The bootlegs are NOT tight banded, and this tight groove feature is just as good a pushmarks when verifying authentic Sun 45rpm's.

3: Although the 223 is hand etched in the dead wax trail off area (45 U-156 X 20 /45 U-157 X 20) to the right of the 20 is a triangle (Delta) and the number 5498 only the originals will have a stamped triangle (M.S.I.CO is on the 78rpm's) on both sides also. The first Picture Below is a Reproduction Note The Wider Grooves

I have been collecting Elvis' 5 Sun singles 45/78 rpm for many years, and although the pushmarks on the first four 45rpm's is helpful, I can just look a Sun Label and tell if it is genuine, there are many unique characteristics in how these were printed back then, just as the dollar bill has its own from the counterfeits.
The 78 rpm's do not have the pushmarks, but are very easy to substantiate from counterfeits, once you know the game.

[mysterytrainrideson]

Thanks for that, promisedland. Yes, i agree, that you can tell an original Sun 45 by just looking at it. There's just something about them...you can tell straight away without even looking for "push marks" or etches etc.

I once had an original Sun 186 "Just walkin' in the rain"/"Baby please" by The Prisonaires in mint condition. Even though the record was mint and a beautiful clean label, it still looked really OLD it was an amazing copy! Wish i had of kept it now, but sadly i sold it on.

I have two original Elvis Sun 45's in my collection-210 & 217. There both VG condition and they play ok. There still nice to have in any condition.

Also, even a mint original Sun 45 do not play great, they are still hissy because they were not great pressings in the first place. They were cheap pressings and the plastic was of cheap material, i believe chalk was in the mix.

78's were the best for sound. Someone once played me a mint 78 of Sun 223, the sound was incredible.

[promiseland]

Thanks for that, promisedland. Yes, i agree, that you can tell an original Sun 45 by just looking at it. There's just something about them...you can tell straight away without even looking for "push marks" or etches etc.


Also, even a mint original Sun 45 do not play great, they are still hissy because they were not great pressings in the first place. They were cheap pressings and the plastic was of cheap material, i believe chalk was in the mix.
78's were the best for sound. Someone once played me a mint 78 of Sun 223, the sound was incredible.

Although you are partly right, the real reason is they mastered the first four using a Transcription size stylus in error on these first four SUN 45's. A Transcription stylus is used for a Transcription disc, which is a non-commercial private acetate, or a record for radio, or in-house use, all of the time period.
The Transcription size stylus may vary in size from 0.002" to 0.003" as that's a 78 rpm type size - with this error then mastered to 45 rpm.

[Aura Lee]

I listened to this great cut (Mystery Train) from 1955 in the car today.
One question I always had and want to ask now: where is that "clickety clack" rhythm coming from heard through the whole song?
It can't be just Bill Black playing his slap bass.
I thought it might be metal plated shoes clicking on the chair while sittening on a chair.
But I might be wrong.
Anyone has a theory where that clickety clack rhythm comes from?

[elvis-fan]

It can't be just Bill Black playing his slap bass.

[Aura Lee]

It can't be just Bill Black playing his slap bass.

Thank you.
That was interesting.He really knows his stuff.
It explains the echo but for me not really the little percussion sound (clickety click, know what I mean? A bit like stepdance sound ) I hear on "Mystery Train".

[elvis-fan]

It can't be just Bill Black playing his slap bass.

Thank you.
That was interesting.He really knows his stuff.
It explains the echo but for me not really the little percussion sound (clickety click, know what I mean? A bit like stepdance sound ) I hear on "Mystery Train".

As I understand it, it's the "slapback" sound from Bill's bass... but I have no idea what he did or how he did it to work with Sam's setup...

[Aura Lee]

Makes most sense than. Bill Black.
I thought it was metal plated shoes on a chair while playing.
But that isn't true , I guess, since they all were probably standing while recording.
So Bill Black also added a bit of percussion.
The way Johnny Cash did on his early recordings with that little trick on his guitar.

[drjohncarpenter]

Makes most sense than. Bill Black.
I thought it was metal plated shoes on a chair while playing.
But that isn't true , I guess, since they all were probably standing while recording.
So Bill Black also added a bit of percussion.
The way Johnny Cash did on his early recordings with that little trick on his guitar.

No, was Johnny Cash did was different.

Bill Black provided his bass sound using the strings, and his percussive effect made by cupping his hand and hitting the fret board as he played the notes. Tons of rockabilly bass players to come would copy this technique.

This is one reason why drums did not play a prominent part in Elvis' early days. They were not needed.

[Swedish]

Maybe Jerry Lee Lewis its the one that can share some light on this sort of thing about Sun

[drjohncarpenter]

Maybe Jerry Lee Lewis its the one that can share some light on this sort of thing about Sun

IIRC, Jerry Lee Lewis played piano on his Sun recordings.