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Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:17 pm

This page in Nash's is not something I ever believed, but it's a MOST serious charge, and Nash decided to publish this. I don't see any way this can be corroborated, clearly (so it should not be published at all). But do you give this account any weight at all? Does J.B. = B.S. ??? And why tell something like this to a writer, or rather, why make it up, if it is made up? And why should a writer go with something like this?

Is there any way for us to know if her account has any weight at all? I wanted to send the whole book back to the publisher, but now Nash is on my "Friends List" over on FB. Strange world. Anyhow, what do you think of this, and how bad is such journalism, really? And how bad is the woman being interviewed, to say this, knowing it could not be corroborated? (Guralnick printed no such thing from her.)

BovaMainlineTale.jpg


rjm
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Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:54 pm

That woman writes and suggests anything to sell a book even when there is no truth in it

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:37 am

zolderopruiming1 wrote:That woman writes and suggests anything to sell a book even when there is no truth in it


Well, it's what I felt initially - and still do, actually. She has done a lot of work, yes. But in this case, to what end? If she could PROVE this, that would be different, but she can't. This is no normal conversation Bova relates! This a MOST serious charge, and I would think a responsible journalist would try to check it out. (Guralnick learned from Nick that Elvis knocked over a dentist's office: a VERY serious thing - but the scenario is corroborated, and so he went with it. That's responsible: the charge may be serious, but there is more than one source, which you need to have for something like this.) And certain things are false: that constant source of Nash's, that little guy who worked for Parker: he said he was pushing the dog back on stage at the Pan-Pacific, but the photographs show Parker himself where that "Byron Raphael" guy said he was. So that is demonstrably false: or in any case, Byron is not credible: he put himself at the center of everything.

It's hard when you actually "meet" someone with whom you have a bit of a . . . beef. I mean, she's been nice to me on FB, and so I don't want to get into this with her. I guess it's cowardice, but it's hard. (I had no trouble telling off Albert Goldman on a live call-in show in '81, that's for sure!) But she's a basically nice person, and ah . . .

Oh, sorry that we got into it last night. We all say things we don't necessarily mean, right?

rjm

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:49 am

Nash takes the account from girlfriend Joyce Bova. The time-frame was 1971. Although less-discussed, there are more than a few very odd incidents in this period, recalled by those who knew him then, including a harrowing incident cited by actress Peggy Lipton. Unless the author completely dramatized Joyce's memory, it is probably truthful. Joyce never seemed to have an axe to grind.

It would be interesting to learn if this comes from Bova's own book, Don't Ask Forever, rather than a primary source.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:37 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:Nash takes the account from girlfriend Joyce Bova. The time-frame was 1971. Although less-discussed, there are more than a few very odd incidents in this period, recalled by those who knew him then, including a harrowing incident cited by actress Peggy Lipton. Unless the author completely dramatized Joyce's memory, it is probably truthful. Joyce never seemed to have an axe to grind.

It would be interesting to learn if this comes from Bova's own book, Don't Ask Forever, rather than a primary source.


Do you have that book? I didn't get that one: the guys actually said that she wasn't really around all that much. It's out of print, officially, now, but can be bought through other sellers.

Anyway, you believe this? That he mainlined? (I do not recall what happened with Peggy Lipton; if you could refresh . . .)

Thanks.

rjm

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:37 am

rjm wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:Nash takes the account from girlfriend Joyce Bova. The time-frame was 1971. Although less-discussed, there are more than a few very odd incidents in this period, recalled by those who knew him then, including a harrowing incident cited by actress Peggy Lipton. Unless the author completely dramatized Joyce's memory, it is probably truthful. Joyce never seemed to have an axe to grind.

It would be interesting to learn if this comes from Bova's own book, Don't Ask Forever, rather than a primary source.


Do you have that book? I didn't get that one: the guys actually said that she wasn't really around all that much. It's out of print, officially, now, but can be bought through other sellers.

Anyway, you believe this? That he mainlined? (I do not recall what happened with Peggy Lipton; if you could refresh . . .)

Thanks.

rjm

Joyce Bova was important enough to show off at a "mock" Nashville session in June 1971 (the musicians thought she was Priscilla). On January 8, 1972, she was with him at Graceland. Joyce was probably one of his most serious, post-Priscilla relationships.

The story you scanned depicts Elvis getting some kind of sedative injection, not heroin. He would receive such treatments many, many times in the '70s. So, yes, the story is credible.

IIRC, the Lipton memory is in Nash's book.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:42 am

I don't know whether it's true or not but, as Doc notes, it wouldn't have been a heroin injection - at least I sure hope not. Does Nash not offer up the alternative possibility?

The credibility question is answered by Nash's use of Byron Raphael as a source after the embarrassing Playboy article. It tells you that fact-checking isn't a priority if the story is salacious/interesting enough.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:58 am

Well, I hope it's not true - especially the part about him trying to get her to do it, but who knows? It may be. Addicts like company. As for "what" it was, that doesn't matter a whole lot: it was strong. I have never had a doctor give me anything intravenously outside of a hospital. It's really unthinkable . . . and this guy just showed up to do it. Many of these "legal" drugs are 100s of times stronger than heroin, so yeah, he didn't use heroin.

You're usually quite picky about what you accept, so . . . this doesn't go down easily. I don't think "less" of him because of it, but I had been led to believe that he never took that step. With the rubber tubing, a dirty needle that he wanted to hide . . .

We don't know, but I guess it's possible. I suppose it makes little difference whether he took the injections intramuscularly or mainlined, anyway. Many people in his life saw the needle and the damage done - to him. :(

rjm

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:48 am

rjm wrote:Well, I hope it's not true - especially the part about him trying to get her to do it, but who knows? It may be. Addicts like company. As for "what" it was, that doesn't matter a whole lot: it was strong. I have never had a doctor give me anything intravenously outside of a hospital. It's really unthinkable . . . and this guy just showed up to do it. Many of these "legal" drugs are 100s of times stronger than heroin, so yeah, he didn't use heroin.

You're usually quite picky about what you accept, so . . . this doesn't go down easily. I don't think "less" of him because of it, but I had been led to believe that he never took that step. With the rubber tubing, a dirty needle that he wanted to hide . . .

We don't know, but I guess it's possible. I suppose it makes little difference whether he took the injections intramuscularly or mainlined, anyway. Many people in his life saw the needle and the damage done - to him. :(

rjm

Hi, I have read Bova's book, Don't Ask Forever and this episode is recalled by Bova and is referenced pretty faithfully by Nash.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:03 am

beanban1 wrote:
rjm wrote:Well, I hope it's not true - especially the part about him trying to get her to do it, but who knows? It may be. Addicts like company. As for "what" it was, that doesn't matter a whole lot: it was strong. I have never had a doctor give me anything intravenously outside of a hospital. It's really unthinkable . . . and this guy just showed up to do it. Many of these "legal" drugs are 100s of times stronger than heroin, so yeah, he didn't use heroin.

You're usually quite picky about what you accept, so . . . this doesn't go down easily. I don't think "less" of him because of it, but I had been led to believe that he never took that step. With the rubber tubing, a dirty needle that he wanted to hide . . .

We don't know, but I guess it's possible. I suppose it makes little difference whether he took the injections intramuscularly or mainlined, anyway. Many people in his life saw the needle and the damage done - to him. :(

rjm

Hi, I have read Bova's book, Don't Ask Forever and this episode is recalled by Bova and is referenced pretty faithfully by Nash.


That's right. The whole story can be found from the pages 294-298. I don't think that Nash did any interviews with Bova. I recommend Bova's book.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:11 am

Albert Goldman wrote: I recommend Bova's book.


Funny, I was thinking about Joyce Bova only yesterday in the car when a live version of "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" came on and Elvis dedicates the song to Linda. This was Joyce & Elvis' 'song' which she explains in detail in her book. She goes on to say that Elvis gave her the RCA acetate which he signed for her. About 6 years ago I saw her selling that very acetate on ebay.

I enjoyed Bova's book. Although it was a strange time for Elvis, and the story mentioned above and others do appear in this book, she had a way of making Elvis jump off the pages like few others have been able to do, I too would recommend her book.

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Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:27 am

Nash writes things in a way to make them worse, or to make Elvis worse. I find she chooses to print certain things that are in bad taste. Frankly I never liked her work because it aims (often literaly) below the belt. As a writer myself I have been told things about people that I just felt there was no real reason to bring up. It doesn't really help understanding Elvis to know what porn he liked or the color of the panties he prefered on his women. I also felt that she has no compassion for his drug issues. Because of the exagerations (or tone) of authors like herself it put me on the defensive and it took years for me to be able to see Elvis' addiction for what it was. She presents a gross funhouse mirror view of Elvis.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:47 am

These women convey that Elvis was far more into hard drug use in 1971 than a lot of fans would like to think. IIRC, Joyce talked about a near overdose on that November, 1971 tour.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:19 am

Who knows if what Joyce Bova says is true or not.

I remember her book coming across like everything she had written was overly dramatic and it was also like a romance novel.
At least to me it was.

I found her views on her relationship with Elvis to be incredibly naive.

She came across as so naive that i wondered if she really felt that way or was just saying that in hindsight to sell her book.

So who knows if what she says is actually the truth.

I have heard Elvis would sometimes offer pills to the women he was with but it was up to them if they wanted to take them.

Alanna Nash does have a habit of taking scandalous type stories and writing them down without having done research.

She writes down so much of these stories that i think she must be an extremely guillble person but it's also to try and sell books.

I believe she still is a highly regarded journalist in some circles.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:37 am

Yeah I wasn't over fond of the book either. It's one of those where you have to question her remembering everything so detailed. She probably was close to Elvis briefly, but I can't imagine him ever kicking Priscilla out for her which she seems to indicate was going to happen. Maybe he told her that who knows? The whole abortion thing doesn't sound right either. Elvis seemed to be carefull in that respect. After all these years not one credible "love child" has popped up.

I think you have to take all acounts of Elvis in 1971 and put them together. My feeling is that he began to use heavier again in late summer of 1970 after three years of fairly moderate use. In 1971 his problems were getting worse, but in general my feeling is that it was after Aloha that things got truly out of control. You can point to things in the two and a half years before Aloha and see where they were leading, but there seemed to be a new recklessness over the first 1973 winter Vegas stand. That was to my eyes the tipping point.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:19 am

Mike Eder wrote:Yeah I wasn't over fond of the book either. It's one of those where you have to question her remembering everything so detailed. She probably was close to Elvis briefly, but I can't imagine him ever kicking Priscilla out for her which she seems to indicate was going to happen. Maybe he told her that who knows? The whole abortion thing doesn't sound right either. Elvis seemed to be carefull in that respect. After all these years not one credible "love child" has popped up.

I think you have to take all acounts of Elvis in 1971 and put them together. My feeling is that he began to use heavier again in late summer of 1970 after three years of fairly moderate use. In 1971 his problems were getting worse, but in general my feeling is that it was after Aloha that things got truly out of control. You can point to things in the two and a half years before Aloha and see where they were leading, but there seemed to be a new recklessness over the first 1973 winter Vegas stand. That was to my eyes the tipping point.


It's kind of a mysterious year in his history. Not spoken of as much as most others, and yet could be quite significant. I wish there were more detail - detail that was very strong in its reliability. We get bits and pieces of this year. And I'd like to know more. The Comeback clearly was over, and that's significant. But did Elvis realize it then? I think perhaps he did, to some extent. In any event, I think it's a very important time, and we know much less about it than other years. It is less documented than most of the years leading up to it, or those that followed. And yet, the difference between the person in TTWII and EOT is quite stunning.

I wish there were more to go on. I'm not sure about her, but I guess I'll get the book. There isn't a whole lot else, really. A lot of people weren't necessarily around, who'd be back in '72. That's also a consideration, and with no interviews from that year - excepting the Jaycee's events on a single day in January, there's just not much available directly. In '68, we have a month under the microscope, and much of the year covered well by many people. '69 and '70 are very well-covered, some with documentary footage. We have a full, real interview in '72 and three press conferences filmed, and lots of film, and the Garden . . . and we seem to know everything in '73, including going into a living room with Elvis and a guitar, and some regulars. And then "the Fall" is covered very well from then on.

But 1971 seems to be almost a black hole. There is precious little film of him even in concert, that one great review of a Boston concert, no press events after January, no interviews of which I'm aware. Not much of anything, except that he had secondary glaucoma and the sessions were very difficult, but just very little. And so that's why this book is about all we have to go on.

Anybody know of anything else? I don't.

rjm

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:43 pm

It is somewhat strange, that fans always tell every detail of positive stories of Elvis' private life, but all the negative stuff is below the belt and not interesting at all.

To me Elvis Aron Presley is a historic figure and I want to learn as much as possible about the man behind the legend. I'm not in need of a hero or a friend, so I don't care if the result is positive or negative.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:27 pm

Not saying that Bova's stories are fabrications, but I remember reading her book a few years ago and getting the impression that she didn't spend enough time with Elvis to write a book. So who knows if what she tells is true or if she just needed some "juicy material" to fill in a few hundred pages. I mean, looks like she was with him only a few times (4 or 5 maybe, can't remember), so the book it's filled with her memories of waiting to see him and signs of little interest in her from Elvis part.
Also, it's been said that what Elvis really intended to do when he flew to meet Nixon was visiting with Bova, but once you've read her book you realize that she wasn't important to him at all, certainly not to the point of leaving Priscilla or anyone for her.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:00 pm

I think with a lot of the books about him, you take most of the stories with a pinch of salt..they all like to recount one-on-one conversations with him which unfortunately can't be disputed or verified

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:44 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:Nash takes the account from girlfriend Joyce Bova. The time-frame was 1971. Although less-discussed, there are more than a few very odd incidents in this period, recalled by those who knew him then, including a harrowing incident cited by actress Peggy Lipton. Unless the author completely dramatized Joyce's memory, it is probably truthful. Joyce never seemed to have an axe to grind.

It would be interesting to learn if this comes from Bova's own book, Don't Ask Forever, rather than a primary source.



I have Joyce's book and, yes, the account is from her.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:36 pm

debtd1 wrote:I think with a lot of the books about him, you take most of the stories with a pinch of salt..they all like to recount one-on-one conversations with him which unfortunately can't be disputed or verified


These conversations may not be Joyce Bova's exact words: Don't Ask Forever is actually written by William Conrad Nowels. Many of Elvis-books are written by ghostwriters who mould interviews to literature and they often choose the style themselves. Bova's book is indeed romantic and even melodramatic but I still see no reason to doubt the stories she has shared. Elvis propably pushed other people to take pills with him - for example Priscilla and Barbara Leigh, if I remember correctly.

And, I can not understand why Bova was shocked when Elvis showed his penis to her before taking his injection, but I guess that is off-topic.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:01 pm

beanban1 wrote:Hi, I have read Bova's book, Don't Ask Forever and this episode is recalled by Bova and is referenced pretty faithfully by Nash.

As I suspected, thank you for the confirmation.

---

Unlike some other claims here, Joyce is the author of her 1994 autobiography; William Conrad Nowels is given an "as told to" credit.


940701_Don't Ask Forever_Bova.JPG


TJ wrote:The credibility question is answered by Nash's use of Byron Raphael as a source after the embarrassing Playboy article. It tells you that fact-checking isn't a priority if the story is salacious/interesting enough.

Just because an author makes a mistake elsewhere does not mean all their work should be dismissed. Alanna Nash has written very capably about Elvis, case-in-point Elvis Aaron Presley: Revelations From The Memphis Mafia, which remains an essential book for the serious Presley aficionado.

---

Here's a decent review published in the Baltimore Sun almost exactly 18 years ago. At the very least it indicates that Bova's words ring true, if not always with grace. The August 1975 vignette noted in the piece is heartbreaking.


Monday Book Review
By Victor Paul Alvarez, Baltimore Sun
Monday, October 31, 1994


DON'T ASK FOREVER : MY LOVE AFFAIR WITH ELVIS.
By Joyce Bova, as told to William Conrad Nowels. Kensington Books. 386 pages. $20

HIS WAS a love that could destroy the object of its desire.

She, Joyce Bova, was the object of Elvis Presley's desire for three years, beginning in 1969 when they met in Las Vegas. The book, "Don't Ask Forever: My Love Affair with Elvis," is her version of "The Victor King and I."

It is corny, verbose and self-conscious. To make matters worse, the ghostwriter, William Conrad Nowels, never saw an adjective he didn't like.

But it's also a lot of fun. We see Elvis happy, mad, sad, rejected, impatient and funny. We watch him perform in Las Vegas and we hear him exchange soap operatic dialogue with the author in bedrooms and on the telephone. When they eat, our suspicions are confirmed as he chomps cheeseburgers three at a time.

And the dialogue is priceless.

" 'Boy, I was a saint compared to what they have today,' he went on. 'I was never vulgar. Did you ever listen to the words in some of those Rolling Stones songs? And that uh, whatsis name? David Bowie? He is some kind of weirdo, man.' "

They would see each other when their schedules allowed, either at Graceland or in Washington where she worked as an aide for the House Armed Services Committee. Her career fascinated him, as long as it didn't interfere with their seeing each other.

The relationship eventually suffered and died from his reliance on drugs, although she says Elvis never admitted having a drug problem because he thought that if a doctor prescribed something, it wasn't really a drug.

While Elvis fans will not be disappointed, they may be a bit shocked. Ms. Bova is not always kind in her portrayal of the King.

Ms. Bova, a Baltimore native, claims she met Elvis in Las Vegas in 1969. She claims she aborted Elvis' child. She also claims the Big E hooked her on sleeping pills.

Yet she writes that she "lived for a while in the heat and glow of this star and I believe that for me, his light will never dim."

So it wasn't all that bad. In fact, one would have to conclude Ms. Bova considers herself one of the world's luckiest people. No matter how silly some of this gets, her sincerity will eventually get to you.

Her best moment is in the epilogue. Years after she and Elvis had split up, Ms. Bova was troubled by rumors of the deterioration of Elvis' performances. In the summer of 1975, she went to Las Vegas to see him perform.

"The man spotlighted onstage only remotely resembled the Elvis I had known. He was almost grotesque, ballooned to a pathetic caricature of his former self. With the crowd around me still yelling and cheering for more of this awkward, pitiful parody of former greatness, I stood up, and wiping the tears from my cheeks, walked sadly up the aisle and away."

Victor Paul Alvarez is a free- lance writer.

Joyce Bova | Elvis was her man - Baltimore Sun

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1994-10-31/news/1994304141_1_bova-elvis-in-las-met-elvis

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Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:16 pm

Albert Goldman wrote:
debtd1 wrote:I think with a lot of the books about him, you take most of the stories with a pinch of salt..they all like to recount one-on-one conversations with him which unfortunately can't be disputed or verified


These conversations may not be Joyce Bova's exact words: Don't Ask Forever is actually written by William Conrad Nowels. Many of Elvis-books are written by ghostwriters who mould interviews to literature and they often choose the style themselves. Bova's book is indeed romantic and even melodramatic but I still see no reason to doubt the stories she has shared. Elvis propably pushed other people to take pills with him - for example Priscilla and Barbara Leigh, if I remember correctly.
.


If i remember right Elvis offered both Priscilla and Barbara leigh pills and they both chose to take them.

Priscilla stopped taking them after awhile and Barbara Leigh only took the occasional sleeping pill.

I don't recall anyone else saying Elvis tried to force them into taking drugs other than Joyce Bova.

lets not forget that Joyce Bova was a grown woman as well.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:20 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
beanban1 wrote:Hi, I have read Bova's book, Don't Ask Forever and this episode is recalled by Bova and is referenced pretty faithfully by Nash.

As I suspected, thank you for the confirmation.

---

Unlike some other claims here, Joyce is the author of her 1994 autobiography; William Conrad Nowels is given an "as told to" credit.



As you can read from your from the review that you just sent, Williams Conrad Nowels is the ghostwriter - just as I claimed. He is a novelist and a screenwriter.

Re: Bova Question: JB=Fact or Fiction???

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:27 pm

brian wrote:I don't recall anyone else saying Elvis tried to force them into taking drugs other than Joyce Bova.

Many associated with Elvis tell of his insistence on those with him sharing his use of doctor-prescribed "medicine," and it goes back to 1959 and his days in Germany. Rex Mansfield's testimony on this appears in a book he published with his wife, Elizabeth, who also was with Elvis then.


020901_Sergeant Presley_Mansfield.JPG
Rex Mansfield, Elisabeth Mansfield, Marshall Terrill, Zoe Terrill, Sergeant Presley: Our Untold Story of Elvis' Missing Years (Toronto: ECW Press, 2002)
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Last edited by drjohncarpenter on Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.