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Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:00 pm

George Smith wrote:Karlos, you are very kind, thank you.



Yvw George Smith - - Enjoy ya week - God Bless -
-TCE4Evr :smt006
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Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:55 pm

Very interesting stuff. Puts a well known story in a different perspective ::rocks

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:02 pm

Pink&Black wrote:Very interesting stuff. Puts a well known story in a different perspective ::rocks


It's more than interesting, it is a fresh, relevant point about who Elvis was in 1954, and that his creativity was not always spontaneous or natural.

At 19 years, Elvis Presley was a fully conscious artist who understood where popular music was, and where it needed to go.

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:09 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
Pink&Black wrote:Very interesting stuff. Puts a well known story in a different perspective ::rocks


It's more than interesting, it is a fresh, relevant point about who Elvis was in 1954, and that his creativity was not always spontaneous or natural.

At 19 years, Elvis Presley was a fully conscious artist who understood where popular music was, and where it needed to go.

Those are very kind words, John, thank you.

And thank you, P&B, for the thumbs-up.

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:40 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:At 19 years, Elvis Presley was a fully conscious artist who understood where popular music was, and where it needed to go.


This is so true!!!

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:50 am

Just re-read this post. I remember it from when you first posted it and just wanted to say it really is a great, fantastic effort. One of those rare posts that makes FECC great. It's a revelatory, unique insight and opinion into perhaps the most important Rock song of all time.

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:49 pm

Good Time Charlie wrote:Just re-read this post. I remember it from when you first posted it and just wanted to say it really is a great, fantastic effort. One of those rare posts that makes FECC great. It's a revelatory, unique insight and opinion into perhaps the most important Rock song of all time.

Thank you, Charlie, you are very kind.

I'm glad you enjoyed the original piece: it came out of something else that I've been working on for a while but I felt it could stand on its own as a separate article.

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:37 am

George Smith wrote:I'm glad you enjoyed the original piece: it came out of something else that I've been working on for a while but I felt it could stand on its own as a separate article.


Hope you finish that "something else" soon, and share it with us! Some additional thoughts to consider:

In looking at the Crudup Comparison.jpg, is it possible that Elvis was pulling from just three Crudup discs?

"If I Get Lucky" (RCA Bluebird B8858, October 1941 / RCA Victor 20-2798 February 1948)
"I Want My Lovin'" (RCA Victor 20-2105, January 1947)
"That's All Right" (RCA Victor 20-2205, March 1947 / RCA Victor 50-0000, 1950)


470100_RCA 2105_Crudup.JPG



500000_RCA 500000_Crudup.JPG



Most all the ideas incorporated in that hot Monday evening at Sun in July 1954 are contained in that trio. Anyway, just a possibility.

On a more significant note, while Crudup tracks like "That's All Right" first arrived in early 1947, as noted above RCA reissued others, some on their "50" series of 45s in 1949-1950, when Elvis was in high school. No doubt WDIA played them. So, although many of Crudup's singles came out when Elvis was in grammar school, I suspect they hit Presley's ears when became hard-wired to the radio, during his teen-aged, high school years (1949-1953).

And what are we to make of this 1956 interview below with Elvis, apparently published in the January 1957 Hit Parader?


570100_Hit Parader_cover.JPG



It's been quoted in many books, most recently the Bimbaum source cited.


121221_Before Elvis_Bimbaum_p03.JPG
121221_Before Elvis_Bimbaum_p04.JPG


"(I) dug the real low-down Mississippi singers, mostly Big Bill Broonzy and Big Boy Cruddup [sic], although they would scold me at home for listening to them."

(Speaking of Sam Phillips) "'You want to make some blues?'" he suggested over the phone, knowing I'd always been a sucker for that kind of jive. He mentioned Big Boy Cruddup's name, and maybe others too ... We talked about the Cruddup records I knew, 'Cool Disposition,' 'Rock Me Baby,' 'Everything's All Right,' and others, but settled for 'That's All Right,' one of my top favorites."

Larry Bimbaum, Before Elvis: The Prehistory of Rock 'n' Roll (New York: Rowman & Littlefield, December 21, 2012)


If this is a genuine statement, it further spins the theory of Elvis' strategy to conquer Sun to mean Sam Phillips already knew what Presley had to offer as far as blues.
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Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:00 am

Excellent! I did not read it the first time around. ::rocks

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:12 pm

Elvis heard live music in Tupelo, other than "white gospel." There have been a number of interviews establishing this, and even Guralnick would not deny it.

Are we to be believe almost everyone in Michael Rose's documentary on the Tupelo years is lying, along with Elvis himself? Albert Goldman is a source for Birnbaum, along with Guralnick, and it is a distortion of Guralnick. Guralnick says a LOT more than what is represented by Birnbaum.

Also, B.B. King knew Elvis very early on. As time passes, it gets more hazy, but he did have some very clear earlier memories. Birnbaum's work is a "revisionsit" distortion. Has anyone tracked Crudup's travels, closely, during the 40s? Before dismissing Elvis out of hand? Elvis heard plenty of music in Tupelo, of all kinds, and it is well-corroborated. Very well.

Birnbaum takes us back to Vince Staten.

What do you think of Birnbaum, George?

rjm

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:15 pm

My sole interest in Bimbaum is the example of his use of the interview published in the January 1957 Hit Parader magazine, not his thesis.

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:45 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:My sole interest in Bimbaum is the example of his use of the interview published in the January 1957 Hit Parader magazine, not his thesis.


Cool. I have always been bewildered by this quotation, particularly since learning of Elvis working up the song with Johnny Black, on the lawn of the Courts. Elvis lived on Alabama Street then, but this wasbefore he would have had any A&R discussions with Sam. Also, Phillips has NEVER suggested that any such discussion ever took place. And all prssent recall Phillips's alarm at what he heard that night.

Also, if it was decided that he came down to "make a blues," why did Sam bother withose groupless-birdgroup-ballads? He was having success at that time with another balladeer: Johnny Bragg. So, that makes sense: Mr. Phillips wanted more hits. In another, rare interview, Elvis talked about doing "Western" type material, that didn't work. "Until I relaxed into my own style." (If I had the citation . . . I'd jump over the moon. But that is a quotation, too.)

It is a puzzlement. I always assumed it was a "questionnaire" type interview. And that perhaps Chick Crunpacker, or someone with such knowledge, filled it out. That's just a guess. Because it is at odds with everything else. Yet it always existed.

I didn't mean to say that Birnbaum was indentical to Vince Staten, but in a more sophisticated way, we are right back with Staten's seedy little book. Anybody read that one?

And, George, we all await the "something else"!! Bring it on!

And thanks to everyone for these explorations in to the greatest unknowns of Elvis Presley's musical education. That there is still controversy, after over half a century, is astonishing. Like he PURPOSELY set out to hide the sources of his own musical development

I once posted the trailer Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, to try to get inside his head.

That boy sure rode a Mystery Train!

Perhaps George's forthcoming work will help!! Oh, please!

Many thanks, George!

rjm (Perhaps FECC should consider the "Dropbox Chooser" with protected, copyrighted documents . . . it's a pretty easy thing to implement)

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:28 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
"(I) dug the real low-down Mississippi singers, mostly Big Bill Broonzy and Big Boy Cruddup [sic], although they would scold me at home for listening to them."

(Speaking of Sam Phillips) "'You want to make some blues?'" he suggested over the phone, knowing I'd always been a sucker for that kind of jive. He mentioned Big Boy Cruddup's name, and maybe others too ... We talked about the Cruddup records I knew, 'Cool Disposition,' 'Rock Me Baby,' 'Everything's All Right,' and others, but settled for 'That's All Right,' one of my top favorites."

Larry Bimbaum, Before Elvis: The Prehistory of Rock 'n' Roll (New York: Rowman & Littlefield, December 21, 2012)


If this is a genuine statement, it further spins the theory of Elvis' strategy to conquer Sun to mean Sam Phillips already knew what Presley had to offer as far as blues.


Thanks for the excellent input, John and rj, great discussion points.

With regard to whether Elvis was literally drawing upon three or five Crudup songs, John, I'm happy either way: I was attempting to justify every single word if at all possible, hence my somewhat over-the-top word-by-word comparison. In practice, it may well have been just three that EP was actually using but the other lyrics were dancing around in the back of his head.

Just to clarify, with regard to the above extract, are you saying that these are the words that Elvis is quoted as using?

If so, my highlighted phrase sounds about as un-Elvis a phrase from 1956 as can possibly be imagined. It sounds too self-consciously hip to my ears and it just seems so alien to the sort of stories that Scotty and Sam have told down through the years. The sudden and unexpected emergence of this r&b song at the end of the audition session is the key message that always comes across when I hear or read the story.

I just re-watched a Sun documentary over the weekend and there it was again, Sam's exclamation -- "What have you been holding from me, man!", or words to that effect.

Such a fascinating and frustrating topic: what an awesome day in pop culture. When I read Guralnick's account I'm always caught up in the moment, that sense of excitement that Sam must have felt when the studio eventually cleared in the early hours of Monday night / Tuesday morning. Sam KNEW exactly what they'd achieved.
Last edited by George Smith on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:49 pm

George Smith wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
"(I) dug the real low-down Mississippi singers, mostly Big Bill Broonzy and Big Boy Cruddup [sic], although they would scold me at home for listening to them."

(Speaking of Sam Phillips) "'You want to make some blues?'" he suggested over the phone, knowing I'd always been a sucker for that kind of jive. He mentioned Big Boy Cruddup's name, and maybe others too ... We talked about the Cruddup records I knew, 'Cool Disposition,' 'Rock Me Baby,' 'Everything's All Right,' and others, but settled for 'That's All Right,' one of my top favorites."

Larry Bimbaum, Before Elvis: The Prehistory of Rock 'n' Roll (New York: Rowman & Littlefield, December 21, 2012)


If this is a genuine statement, it further spins the theory of Elvis' strategy to conquer Sun to mean Sam Phillips already knew what Presley had to offer as far as blues.


Thanks for the excellent input, John and rj, great discussion points.

With regard to whether Elvis was literally drawing upon three or five Crudup songs, John, I'm happy either way: I was attempting to justify every single word if at all possible, hence my somewhat over-the-top word-by-word comparison. In practice, it may well have been just three that EP was actually using but the other lyrics were dancing around in the back of his head.

Just to clarify, with regard to the above extract, are you saying that these are the words that Elvis is quoted as using?

If so, my highlighted phrase sounds about as un-Elvis a phrase from 1956 as can possibly be imagined. It sounds to self-consciously hip to my ears and it just seems so alien to the sort of stories that Scotty and Sam have told down through the years. The sudden and unexpected emergence of this r&b song at the end of the audition session is the key message that always comes across when I hear or read the story.

I just re-watched a Sun documentary over the weekend and there it was again, Sam's exclamation -- "What have you been holding from me, man!", or words to that effect.

Such a fascinating and frustrating topic: what an awesome day in pop culture. When I read Guralnick's account I'm always caught up in the moment, that sense of excitement that Sam must have felt when the studio eventually cleared in the early hours of Monday night / Tuesday morning. Sam KNEW exactly what they'd achieved.


Everything in quotation marks apparently derives from that 1957 Hit Parader. It would be instructive to see the original article. I'm going to PM The fool, who has a tremendous archive of vintage '50s magazines. Perhaps he has this issue and can post it for us.

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:33 am

Wonderful response, George. And, Doc, thank you for asking about the article.

"Sucker for that kind of jive." Elvis generally tried to avoid hep-talk. He addressed that once. But seeing it would be tremendous!

rjm

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:50 am

If anyone has a copy of the January 1957 Hit Parader, please scan and post the Elvis interview!

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:14 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:If anyone has a copy of the January 1957 Hit Parader, please scan and post the Elvis interview!

In my insane queast for knowledge I have bitten the bullet and purchased a copy from eBay.

Watch this space.

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:02 am

George Smith wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:If anyone has a copy of the January 1957 Hit Parader, please scan and post the Elvis interview!

In my insane queast for knowledge I have bitten the bullet and purchased a copy from eBay.

Watch this space.


George Smith, you are a ROCK STAR!

I cannot wait to see the upload. Please make the scans large for my needy eyes. ;-)

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:56 pm

I have only one word "FANTASTIC" What a thread!!! As you say George, earlier in the thread, its a shame Elvis' never got the chance to tell his side of the story the way we might liked to have heard it. Of course, we will never know the full true story of what really happened on that magical day in July '54. We can only go by "popular myth" and analyse, with intellgence behind the myth, you analyzing and intelligence was well worth reading, i enjoyed reading every word, thank you George.

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Wed May 01, 2013 1:55 pm

mysterytrainrideson wrote:I have only one word "FANTASTIC" What a thread!!! As you say George, earlier in the thread, its a shame Elvis' never got the chance to tell his side of the story the way we might liked to have heard it. Of course, we will never know the full true story of what really happened on that magical day in July '54. We can only go by "popular myth" and analyse, with intellgence behind the myth, you analyzing and intelligence was well worth reading, i enjoyed reading every word, thank you George.

Thank you for the kind words -- glad you enjoyed the article and the ensuing discussions.

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Wed May 01, 2013 9:31 pm

Well, today I received the eBay ordered copy of the Hit-Parader as shown above.

Sadly, there's no mention of the suggested article at all, just a few paragraphs regarding the Love Me Tender movie.

How very disappointing. Still, nothing ventured, nothing gained!

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Wed May 01, 2013 9:36 pm

George Smith wrote:Well, today I received the eBay ordered copy of the Hit-Parader as shown above.

Sadly, there's no mention of the suggested article at all, just a few paragraphs regarding the Love Me Tender movie.

How very disappointing. Still, nothing ventured, nothing gained!


What the heck?!?

Although I wrote "apparently" regarding this issue of Hit Parader, since I did not have a copy, apologies all around.

It appeared somewhere ... but where?

I just noticed the Bimbaum source calls it "the British magazine, Hit Parade." Could the interview have really been published in the UK-only?

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Wed May 01, 2013 10:35 pm

Apology absolutely not necessary, John, but thank you nonetheless.

There was indeed a UK based magazine called Hit Parade: there's a vintage magazine shop near me in Piccadilly Circus, I think I'll pop in there over the next few days.

You never know ...

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Wed May 01, 2013 11:52 pm

George Smith wrote:Apology absolutely not necessary, John, but thank you nonetheless.

There was indeed a UK based magazine called Hit Parade: there's a vintage magazine shop near me in Piccadilly Circus, I think I'll pop in there over the next few days.

You never know ...


The plot thickens!

Re: The Crudup Connection: 5 July 1954 Revisited

Thu May 02, 2013 7:08 am

So, this well-known "quote" from Elvis has been floating around in the ether for, I dunno, over 50 years? Like a verbal . . . ghost?

SunRecords_Vintage.jpg


Then again, maybe it'll turn up in "Hit Parade"! (George, what kind of a magazine was this? If the quote came only from this source, it would be interesting to know something about it. How did they conduct interviews? Were they reliable? Who was their audience? Being British, you'd know better than us Yanks. Thanks. @George Smith)

I found this on Ebay, from '59: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Little-Richard-rare-cover-UK-Hit-Parade-magazine-1959-/230397630392

I can't find another, first-hand available.

More on it:

http://www.usarmygermany.com/Sont.htm?h ... _aafes.htm
Daily Life

My first acquaintance with Java Junction was in the early 1950s when my father worked there and would bring my siblings and I there for Christmas parties. At the time a Sgt. Kent was the manager and I remember getting car sick in his jeep as he brought us to the Christmas party.

Approximately 15-20 people worked at Java Junction in three shifts. Most of the girls were young and hailed from the larger towns in the area. There were two rosy cheeked farm girls also who lived at home. We all rented rooms from farmers in Ober Drackenstein and walked the approximate 2 km to work each day. On occasion we would get rides from the soldiers at Hohenstadt Radio Station when they made grocery runs to Java Junction (specially in the morning) in the stations military vehicles. The worst times were in the winter when the snow was deep and the temperature was very low. The area was approximately 800 meters in altitude with lots of fog and inclement weather.

I started as a cashier and worked my way up to running the PX which was quite well stocked including pipes, perfume, film and local mementos. The juke box was constantly playing the hit tunes of the time. As a method of improving my English I incessantly read Hit Parade Magazine which I couldn’t wait to hit our news stand. I would read the lyrics and then try to follow as the juke box played.



Possible e-mail connections, for this person who "incessantly read Hit Parade Magazine":

Walt Gelnovatch

(Source: Story told by Dorit Gelnovatch, nee: Ortmann; wife of Walt Gelnovatch, 102nd Sig Bn)

(1) (Source: Email from Walt Gelnovatch)
I am sending you two photos of Java Junction. One photo is from 1955 when it was an EES rest stop on the autobahn for GIs (also it was about 2 miles from my station at Hohenstadt) and the second photo is from 1966 when it was a barracks for the 68th Signal Bn. who then administered Hohenstadt. At that point in time the 102d Signal Bn. decommissioned the USAREUR Radio Telephone network for a new system and left Hohenstadt. When we (102d) occupied the site we actually lived at the site. The 68th Sig. Bn. had many more folks (we had 7) to man the function (6 per shift) at the site and therefore had to live elsewhere. By that time the EES had abandoned the site (Java Junction) and it was up for grabs so it was chosen as the site for the 68th Sig. Bn. barracks.

Interesting factoid, from 1956 to 1959 my wife ran the PX at Java Junction, courtesy of her father who was the district supervisor for EES. Her maiden name was Dorit Ortmann and her dad was Erwin Ortmann.
Walt Gelnovatch
Hohenstadt Radio Station, 102nd Sig Bn




rjm
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