Anything about Elvis
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Re: Painful viewing

Wed May 08, 2013 1:20 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:Given how badly Elvis, management and the producers rated the Omaha show, it seems absurd they would return to the tape to insert a few seconds during post-production. It would make both logical and aesthetic sense that they stuck with what they were working with, the Rapid City tape.

Maybe it is logical to you, but you are still wrong. The sound is from the Omaha show.

Re: Painful viewing

Wed May 08, 2013 2:03 am

It is sad. And as much as the collector in me would like this footage in dvd quality, I understand why its not officially out there. Its probably filed away somewhere with the beatles Let it Be movie and The Star Wars Holiday Special, in the 'seemed like a good idea at the time, ignore it and it might go away' file...

Re: Painful viewing

Wed May 08, 2013 8:26 am

The collector side of me wants it released in crystal clear quality, but the human in me says it should remain unreleased, get the 1955-1975 stuff out first!

Re: Painful viewing

Wed May 08, 2013 9:18 am

memphisound wrote:The collector side of me wants it released in crystal clear quality, but the human in me says it should remain unreleased, get the 1955-1975 stuff out first!

Same here, but my collector side wins every darn time!

Re: Painful viewing

Wed May 08, 2013 10:34 am

JimmyCool wrote:
memphisound wrote:The collector side of me wants it released in crystal clear quality, but the human in me says it should remain unreleased, get the 1955-1975 stuff out first!

Same here, but my collector side wins every darn time!


Yup...my collector side wins far too often than not...

Re: Painful viewing

Fri May 10, 2013 2:56 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:As I've said many times before, we do not honor the man and his legacy by deluding ourselves that he had no fallow periods.


On that point, I'm sure everyone is in agreement.

The issue is, we -- or, at the very least, EPE -- do not throw, say, Elvis' mid-60s movies, or the music that came out of them, on the scrap heap or pretend they never happened.

The fact that EIC has been uniquely singled out for censorship, such that it gets no official recognition, and hence, no official releases in good (or any other) quality, is half the reason Elvis' final project generates so much discussion all these years on.

Notice: half. Notice: final. That EIC is also Elvis' final project rounds out its appeal or fascination (depending on your POV) within the fanbase. It has historic significance, and for better or worse, is the capstone to the musical/performance legacy of, arguably, the most famous music artist/entertainer in the history of popular music. How, in fact, can you appreciate the sum total of who Elvis Presley was as a cultural icon, an artist, and a human being, and what he means and meant to others, WITHOUT his life story's final chapter?

You've only had to say what you've said many times before because people are so entrenched in their opinions -- relative to what a critical document EIC is. In other words, the topic naturally arouses passions, which run a spectrum. Those who favour EIC being suppressed are also sometimes given to commit the additional fallacy of caricaturing the viewpoint of pro-EIC fans and slamming them for being superficial, even selfish. This tends to result in further entrenchment.

Oh... and in order to even see why something may be "fallow" to an individual or a cross-section of people, it's rather important to let that thing breathe and permit others come to their own views -- free of censorship, caricature, and condemnation. To do otherwise is to advance a fascistic or religiously fundamental agenda: i.e., you label something else as contraband, or evil, and do the thinking of others for them. In my book, that isn't the way democratically-minded people should behave. In a free and just society, no-one should bar others from art, or let others tell them what is and isn't an appropriate use of their time and attention.

Censoring something like EIC also sends out the message -- though many can't seem to see it -- that being sick, disabled, or not at one's best (for whatever reason(s)) is unacceptable in modern society, and that you, being sick, disabled, or not at your best, are inherently inferior in anything you believe, say, or do. Compassion for limitation and weakness of different kinds is, IMO, what distinguishes a progressive society from a regressive/repressive one. What we have here is a subtle promulgation of eugenics mixed in with medieval thinking: i.e., keep the ill and the infirm away from the limelight, except as freaks, and don't think about putting their achievements on the same level as "healthy" individuals... I mean, what are ya for wanting EIC released... crazy? I don't like this line of thinking; I don't like it AT ALL.

And the only way to justify an official release of the June 1977 CBS tapes is to pretend that it offers Elvis looking and sounding "good."


Strawman.

No-one has to "pretend" anything where EIC is concerned. People simply have different views.

And some of those views can be quite nuanced.

"Good" is also a subjective term/value statement (and quite a general one at that).

And again, there are -- or can be -- many shades to a person's opinion about a given artwork. Artwork, at any rate, is heterogeneous, IMO, which precludes simplistic good/bad frameworks/readings.

In fact, if you can look at something and say it's X or Y without qualification, it may not be all that stirring or worthwhile (in my view). Again, subjective, but art functions better, I think, when it provokes a range of responses in the same person.

And to reiterate, EIC, as Elvis Presley's final hurrah... (IMO) matters.
Last edited by Cryogenic on Fri May 10, 2013 3:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

Re: Painful viewing

Fri May 10, 2013 3:10 am

I can listen to the music from EIC without a problem. But I don't care if I ever see any video from it again. It is painful viewing. Whether or not EIC is ever fully released in some form to the general public makes no difference to me. But I assure you I won't buy it.

Re: Painful viewing

Fri May 10, 2013 5:49 am

Cryogenic wrote:The fact that EIC has been uniquely singled out for censorship, such that it gets no official recognition, and hence, no official releases in good (or any other) quality, is half the reason Elvis' final project generates so much discussion all these years on.

And if EPE were to release any sort of edit, it would not be enough. The EIC fanboys will never be satisfied unless ALL of the footge is released in blu-ray/5.1 surround sound. The discussion will never cease.

Re: Painful viewing

Sat May 11, 2013 11:05 pm

[sup]well said cryogenic. Exactly how I feel.

Re: Painful viewing

Sun May 12, 2013 12:39 am

I just want the audio from the Rapid City show remixed and released on FTD... we don't even have a show from that tour yet... as it was the best show from that tour and it's multi-track, it makes the most sense. The video of the event I can do without.

Re: Painful viewing

Sun May 12, 2013 1:22 am

elvis-fan wrote:The video of the event I can do without.


I want both video and audio in one nice colossal package by Sony/EPE, similar to the TFC box, and then some. I'm a '77 fanboy and proud of it.

Re: Painful viewing

Sun May 12, 2013 2:12 am

Cryogenic wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:As I've said many times before, we do not honor the man and his legacy by deluding ourselves that he had no fallow periods.


On that point, I'm sure everyone is in agreement.

The issue is, we -- or, at the very least, EPE -- do not throw, say, Elvis' mid-60s movies, or the music that came out of them, on the scrap heap or pretend they never happened.

The fact that EIC has been uniquely singled out for censorship, such that it gets no official recognition, and hence, no official releases in good (or any other) quality, is half the reason Elvis' final project generates so much discussion all these years on.

Notice: half. Notice: final. That EIC is also Elvis' final project rounds out its appeal or fascination (depending on your POV) within the fanbase. It has historic significance, and for better or worse, is the capstone to the musical/performance legacy of, arguably, the most famous music artist/entertainer in the history of popular music. How, in fact, can you appreciate the sum total of who Elvis Presley was as a cultural icon, an artist, and a human being, and what he means and meant to others, WITHOUT his life story's final chapter?

You've only had to say what you've said many times before because people are so entrenched in their opinions -- relative to what a critical document EIC is. In other words, the topic naturally arouses passions, which run a spectrum. Those who favour EIC being suppressed are also sometimes given to commit the additional fallacy of caricaturing the viewpoint of pro-EIC fans and slamming them for being superficial, even selfish. This tends to result in further entrenchment.

Oh... and in order to even see why something may be "fallow" to an individual or a cross-section of people, it's rather important to let that thing breathe and permit others come to their own views -- free of censorship, caricature, and condemnation. To do otherwise is to advance a fascistic or religiously fundamental agenda: i.e., you label something else as contraband, or evil, and do the thinking of others for them. In my book, that isn't the way democratically-minded people should behave. In a free and just society, no-one should bar others from art, or let others tell them what is and isn't an appropriate use of their time and attention.

Censoring something like EIC also sends out the message -- though many can't seem to see it -- that being sick, disabled, or not at one's best (for whatever reason(s)) is unacceptable in modern society, and that you, being sick, disabled, or not at your best, are inherently inferior in anything you believe, say, or do. Compassion for limitation and weakness of different kinds is, IMO, what distinguishes a progressive society from a regressive/repressive one. What we have here is a subtle promulgation of eugenics mixed in with medieval thinking: i.e., keep the ill and the infirm away from the limelight, except as freaks, and don't think about putting their achievements on the same level as "healthy" individuals... I mean, what are ya for wanting EIC released... crazy? I don't like this line of thinking; I don't like it AT ALL.

And the only way to justify an official release of the June 1977 CBS tapes is to pretend that it offers Elvis looking and sounding "good."


Strawman.

No-one has to "pretend" anything where EIC is concerned. People simply have different views.

And some of those views can be quite nuanced.

"Good" is also a subjective term/value statement (and quite a general one at that).

And again, there are -- or can be -- many shades to a person's opinion about a given artwork. Artwork, at any rate, is heterogeneous, IMO, which precludes simplistic good/bad frameworks/readings.

In fact, if you can look at something and say it's X or Y without qualification, it may not be all that stirring or worthwhile (in my view). Again, subjective, but art functions better, I think, when it provokes a range of responses in the same person.

And to reiterate, EIC, as Elvis Presley's final hurrah... (IMO) matters.


Bravo!!

Re: Painful viewing

Sun May 12, 2013 2:34 am

TCB-FAN wrote:
elvis-fan wrote:The video of the event I can do without.


I want both video and audio in one nice colossal package by Sony/EPE, similar to the TFC box, and then some. I'm a '77 fanboy and proud of it.


If your being deadly serious...
1+

Re: Painful viewing

Sun May 12, 2013 2:45 am

The problem is that we do not live in such an open, embracing society. It IS not only repressive, but prone to choose certain individuals and groups, and single them out for brutal ridicule. And Elvis has served that social purpose for a long time now.

I'm not sure such a release would make things any worse, although the possibility exists. It is very hard to imagine just how they would market it, and to whom.

And, then, there are other priorities; it sure would be nice to liberate all those visual outtakes from the TTWII rehearsals, in Blu-Ray, before even dealing with this. Not another recut of the film, but just raw, beautiful footage -- sort of Cinema Verite (sp?). No real narrative. I would love that!

I also realize that would not be so easy. And EIC is available. I have it, and I've had it since '78, when we got a VHS player. Do I want it to be more "lifelike," as is possible with today's tech? Hmmmmmm. No, not me. But while others may want it, it's not their decision to make. Nor is it mine.

While I certainly agree with your point about tolerance of difference, illness, disability, we just don't live in such a world. Yet.

rjm
P.S. -- If they ever did change their minds, in the interest of history, Cryo ought to write the package notes. Would it convince the cruel, those who want to just watch the Wreck On The Highway? I don't know. But it's a legitimate argument -- the argument regarding tolerance.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Last edited by rjm on Sun May 12, 2013 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Painful viewing

Sun May 12, 2013 2:46 am

Guy Lambert wrote:
TCB-FAN wrote:
elvis-fan wrote:The video of the event I can do without.


I want both video and audio in one nice colossal package by Sony/EPE, similar to the TFC box, and then some. I'm a '77 fanboy and proud of it.


If your being deadly serious...
1+



I'm having orgasms thinking about it. Of course I'm freakin serious.

Re: Painful viewing

Mon May 13, 2013 4:48 pm

hli wrote:Even if the fallout was minium that doesn't make grappy songs
like (for example) "old mac Donald" a great song, this was a song released for the general public.
With this kind of material he had to compete against artists like the Beatles, BobDdylan, Simon and Garfunkel,
the Byrds etc, etc. This was absoltuly damaging his credibility as an recording artist. So when Talking about something redicilous then this could be a winner.

Elvis needed that 68 special to get back his credibility, didn't hear "old mac Donald", or "Yoga is as Yoga does" in the setlist.

If no one as you say was lamenting "Ol' MacDonald" when "Suspicious Minds" was #1 on the charts
then why on earth the fans suddenly should fallout orlamenting on the cbs special. We know what to aspect of it.

So in my oppinion this point of view saying more or less sarcasm that worser things have been released wich
were damaging his legasy isn't so rediculous as you say it is.

When talking about releasing the EIC is a whole different discussion.
Beside a few let's say reviving moments, the majority of the performance was due his health problems far from best, no doubt. But still a number of fans want this footage to be released. In some way they can accept or look at it from a different point of view (actuelly more or less like people did with "Ol' Mac Donald").
Perhaps it's an idea to get this only to the these fans, don't know if that's possible?.

For me i could life without it, it's indeed painfull watching, but hey i could also
live without "Ol' Mac Donald". Pfff...... a view more posts and i'm beginning to like this song :wink: .


Ok ... I just read this three times and I don't have a clue what any of it means. Is it just a bunch of random words selected from a hat? :?

Re: Painful viewing

Mon May 13, 2013 5:07 pm

Swingin-Little-Guitar-Man wrote:I just read this three times and I don't have a clue what any of it means. Is it just a bunch of random words selected from a hat? :?

It makes perfect sense to me and I applaud hli for his post. Let me try to explain in my own words.

With the kind of material Elvis was doing, he needed the '68 Special for songs like "old mac Donald", or "Yoga is as Yoga does" in the setlist because "Suspicious Minds was #1 on the charts. The credibility didn't hear it. He was competing against Beatles, BobDdylan, Simon and Garfunkel, for a song released to the general public. in hli's oppinion this point of view saying more or less sarcasm that worser things have been released wich
were damaging his legasy isn't so rediculous as you say it is.

Plain and simple.

Re: Painful viewing

Mon May 13, 2013 5:11 pm

The footage belongs to Lisa Marie Presley, and she is understandably opposed to releasing it. Simple as that

Re: Painful viewing

Mon May 13, 2013 6:44 pm

Rob wrote:
Swingin-Little-Guitar-Man wrote:I just read this three times and I don't have a clue what any of it means. Is it just a bunch of random words selected from a hat? :?

It makes perfect sense to me and I applaud hli for his post. Let me try to explain in my own words.

With the kind of material Elvis was doing, he needed the '68 Special for songs like "old mac Donald", or "Yoga is as Yoga does" in the setlist because "Suspicious Minds was #1 on the charts. The credibility didn't hear it. He was competing against Beatles, BobDdylan, Simon and Garfunkel, for a song released to the general public. in hli's oppinion this point of view saying more or less sarcasm that worser things have been released wich
were damaging his legasy isn't so rediculous as you say it is.

Plain and simple.

I want to party with you two guys!

:D

Incidentally, did you study under our old friend, Spellbinder?: :smt002

Re: Painful viewing

Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:52 pm

Clearly EPE doesn't think that EIC is a total waste; when I was at Graceland last year, they were selling the EIC CD. (I saw some woman picking it up and glancing at the tracklisting, and I almost wanted to intervene and tell her that the On Stage CD, in the next rack, was probably a better investment. She ended up putting the CD back of her own accord...)

I have to be honest; I grew up amidst all of the "fat Elvis" cliches, and when I finally got to see EIC, it wasn't what I expected. What shocked me wasn't his weight, but the look in his eyes. Especially in the "backstage" montage that opens the special...he looks completely out of it. It's very disturbing to watch.

That said, I really don't think that the special is the complete trainwreck that some people say it is. My Way, You Gave Me A Mountain, How Great Thou Art, and the sung parts of Are You Lonesome Tonight? are all more than credible performances.

And the fact is, most people already think of Elvis as some drugged -up fat guy who wore hideous jumpsuits and said "well, well, well" a lot. Releasing EIC isn't going to damage Elvis' legacy any more than it's already been damaged (EIC and Goldman are frequent scapegoats, but the impersonators and National Enquirer covers are far more damaging, imo). If someone in 2013 has an axe to grind against Elvis, they're going to grind it, EIC or not. Some people seem to think that a DVD release of EIC will cause a firestorm of public attention and ridicule to come down on Elvis...my gut feeling is that this is nonsense. If they could release a Paradise Hawaiian Style DVD, a "complete" Comeback Special box, and Prince From Another Planet, and not make the slightest impact on the non-Elvis world, I doubt many people would pay too much attention to an EIC release (especially if it was on FTD).

Part of the EIC mystique (if "mystique" is the right word), at least in Elvis circles, is the simple fact that it's unavailable in an official format and is a historically important document. I say: release it, and people will shut up about it. It's like George Lucas refusing to release the original SW movies in decent quality. I don't care what he does to his movies, and no one I know does either: provided that we can enjoy the originals without having to resort to a crappy DVD that looks ripped from a VHS copy. Until we get decent DVD copies of the original trilogy, people are going to be unhappy, and no amount of tinkering (even if the changes were good) will change that.

Re: Painful viewing

Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:22 pm

Eggrert wrote:Clearly EPE doesn't think that EIC is a total waste; when I was at Graceland last year, they were selling the EIC CD. (I saw some woman picking it up and glancing at the tracklisting, and I almost wanted to intervene and tell her that the On Stage CD, in the next rack, was probably a better investment. She ended up putting the CD back of her own accord...)

I have to be honest; I grew up amidst all of the "fat Elvis" cliches, and when I finally got to see EIC, it wasn't what I expected. What shocked me wasn't his weight, but the look in his eyes. Especially in the "backstage" montage that opens the special...he looks completely out of it. It's very disturbing to watch.

That said, I really don't think that the special is the complete trainwreck that some people say it is. My Way, You Gave Me A Mountain, How Great Thou Art, and the sung parts of Are You Lonesome Tonight? are all more than credible performances.
And the fact is, most people already think of Elvis as some drugged -up fat guy who wore hideous jumpsuits and said "well, well, well" a lot. Releasing EIC isn't going to damage Elvis' legacy any more than it's already been damaged (EIC and Goldman are frequent scapegoats, but the impersonators and National Enquirer covers are far more damaging, imo). If someone in 2013 has an axe to grind against Elvis, they're going to grind it, EIC or not. Some people seem to think that a DVD release of EIC will cause a firestorm of public attention and ridicule to come down on Elvis...my gut feeling is that this is nonsense. If they could release a Paradise Hawaiian Style DVD, a "complete" Comeback Special box, and Prince From Another Planet, and not make the slightest impact on the non-Elvis world, I doubt many people would pay too much attention to an EIC release (especially if it was on FTD).

Part of the EIC mystique (if "mystique" is the right word), at least in Elvis circles, is the simple fact that it's unavailable in an official format and is a historically important document. I say: release it, and people will shut up about it. It's like George Lucas refusing to release the original SW movies in decent quality. I don't care what he does to his movies, and no one I know does either: provided that we can enjoy the originals without having to resort to a crappy DVD that looks ripped from a VHS copy. Until we get decent DVD copies of the original trilogy, people are going to be unhappy, and no amount of tinkering (even if the changes were good) will change that.


Three and a half credible songs out of a 50 minute TV special (or, more accurately, two complete concerts) is pretty much proving the point of how bad things were.

Re: Painful viewing

Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:34 pm

Eggrert wrote:Clearly EPE doesn't think that EIC is a total waste; when I was at Graceland last year, they were selling the EIC CD. (I saw some woman picking it up and glancing at the tracklisting, and I almost wanted to intervene and tell her that the On Stage CD, in the next rack, was probably a better investment. She ended up putting the CD back of her own accord...)

I have to be honest; I grew up amidst all of the "fat Elvis" cliches, and when I finally got to see EIC, it wasn't what I expected. What shocked me wasn't his weight, but the look in his eyes. Especially in the "backstage" montage that opens the special...he looks completely out of it. It's very disturbing to watch.

That said, I really don't think that the special is the complete trainwreck that some people say it is. My Way, You Gave Me A Mountain, How Great Thou Art, and the sung parts of Are You Lonesome Tonight? are all more than credible performances.

And the fact is, most people already think of Elvis as some drugged -up fat guy who wore hideous jumpsuits and said "well, well, well" a lot. Releasing EIC isn't going to damage Elvis' legacy any more than it's already been damaged (EIC and Goldman are frequent scapegoats, but the impersonators and National Enquirer covers are far more damaging, imo). If someone in 2013 has an axe to grind against Elvis, they're going to grind it, EIC or not. Some people seem to think that a DVD release of EIC will cause a firestorm of public attention and ridicule to come down on Elvis...my gut feeling is that this is nonsense. If they could release a Paradise Hawaiian Style DVD, a "complete" Comeback Special box, and Prince From Another Planet, and not make the slightest impact on the non-Elvis world, I doubt many people would pay too much attention to an EIC release (especially if it was on FTD).

Part of the EIC mystique (if "mystique" is the right word), at least in Elvis circles, is the simple fact that it's unavailable in an official format and is a historically important document. I say: release it, and people will shut up about it. It's like George Lucas refusing to release the original SW movies in decent quality. I don't care what he does to his movies, and no one I know does either: provided that we can enjoy the originals without having to resort to a crappy DVD that looks ripped from a VHS copy. Until we get decent DVD copies of the original trilogy, people are going to be unhappy, and no amount of tinkering (even if the changes were good) will change that.


I agree with this 1,000%.

Also, don't forget that they show PERFECT quality footage of Elvis singing Early Morning Rain on 6/19/1977 in EIC at Graceland in the trophy room right next to the Sundial suit. I was stunned at how much "better" (if you can call it that) Elvis looked through the window of perfect footage as opposed to the terrible quality footage that has been available on the bootleg market for years. Surely the terrible quality footage does far more harm to Elvis? With EPE's policy against releasing EIC you would think there would be absolutely ZERO footage on the actual Graceland TOUR.

Surely someone still believes EIC to have some historical merit, otherwise they wouldn't even have this footage on the tour. With EPE's longstanding policy on EIC I was kind of shocked to discover that it was part of the tour when I went last year in August.

Re: Painful viewing

Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:50 pm

Eggrert wrote:Until we get decent DVD copies of the original trilogy, people are going to be unhappy...

So let them be unhappy...

Re: Painful viewing

Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:59 pm

Eggrert wrote:Part of the EIC mystique (if "mystique" is the right word), at least in Elvis circles, is the simple fact that it's unavailable in an official format and is a historically important document. I say: release it, and people will shut up about it. It's like George Lucas refusing to release the original SW movies in decent quality.


Original Star Wars movies = "Elvis In Concert" ...

Now I've heard it all.

Re: Painful viewing

Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:12 pm

poormadpeter wrote:Three and a half credible songs out of a 50 minute TV special (or, more accurately, two complete concerts) is pretty much proving the point of how bad things were.


Agreed; EIC is no masterpiece, and 1977 was, on the whole, a rut of a year. But that's not the point. No one is claiming that the Easy Come, Easy Go soundtrack should never have been released on CD (and that particular EP is of far lesser historical value than EIC).


elvis-fan wrote:So let them be unhappy...


Just saying that the clamoring for the film's release isn't going to let up anytime soon...


drjohncarpenter wrote:Original Star Wars movies = "Elvis In Concert" ...

Now I've heard it all.


I was comparing the fans' reactions to the unavailability of the films, rather than the relative merits of the films themselves. I thought that was pretty clear, but I guess not...