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Elvis as Recorded at Madison Square Garden Missing Songs?

Sun May 04, 2003 7:56 pm

I hate to bring up an issue that has been discussed elsewhere, but there seems to be such strong feelings I thought this could benefit from its own thread.

Are there really songs missing on the Elvis as Recorded at Madison Square Garden album?

I've read about using audience tapes to confirm this, but since no one will produce even an excerpt of the audience tape, I don't believe it. If there were an audience tape of this show out there, you'd thing Merijn or Francesco or or any number of other live concert collectors would have documented it by now.

Also, RCA were alleged to have given matrix numbers to the 'missing' songs, but since those in question were songs played in the afternoon but not evening, i'd bet the matrix numbers were assigned to selected cuts from the afternoon show, in hopes of making a compilation album, but in the end the finished product was long enough without extra cuts.

I don't have any special insight into this, I am just skeptical because several people insist RCA cut songs from the evening show, but no one ever provides even the tiniest bit of proof other than hearsay, allegations and unsubstantiated rumors. Heck, no one has even posted the alleged matrix numbers.

I call on anyone with the 'proof' to make public the matrix numbers or even the briefest soundbyte from the audience tape so we can all believe, and lobby RCA to fix the errors and release the complete show.

Comments?

Greg

Sun May 04, 2003 8:14 pm

Both Ernst’s book “A Life In Music” and Joe Tunzi’s “Sessions” list the songs recorded at the 8pm show as they appeared on the album. The matrix numbers also run in sequence, which would also suggest that nothing was edited out.
Ernst writes in his own book that Joan Deary handled the MSG album project due to Felton’s illness, and provided “a faithful transcription of the June 10 evening show”.
Surely if anything had been edited out Ernst’s book would have made reference to this. There would be no reason whatsoever for him to withhold this information. We aren’t talking about new songs or rare performances here.

Ernst’s book also makes reference to the Joan Deary’s (un-issued) version of the 1973 “Fool” album, and clearly states that “three songs from the MSG afternoon show – “Until It’s Time For You To Go”, “Blue Suede Shoes” and “Reconsider Baby”” were originally sequenced to appear on this album.

Cool!

Sun May 04, 2003 8:33 pm

rockinrebel,

So the matrix numbers to the "missing" songs were probably actually assigned to these 3 songs from the afternoon show for the aborted "Fool" album, and this had led to the speculation? I think that explains it rather succintly.

That being said, who here is still insisting that these songs (minus steamroller blues) were also played in the Evening show? I still want to hear the other side of the story.

Thanks rockinrebel

Greg

MSG edits

Sun May 04, 2003 8:44 pm

Here's the details of what has been edited from the June 10th.1972 evening
show at MSG

2001 THEME- running time 1.06 was edited out (the total time is written
here,while compared to what is on the LP)
Until It's Time For You To Go-running time 2.45 min. was edited out
Polk Salad Annie-was edited by 20 secs
Blue Suede Shoes-running time 1.05 min was edited out
Suspicious Minds-was edited by 58 secs
Introductions-running time 1.28 mins. was edited out (same comments as 2001
theme)
Closing Vamp:was 1.05 mins. was edited out(same as above)

The introductions was inserted after the 'Impossible Dream' on the LP but
was actually done after 'Suspicious Minds'.

This was timed from an audience recording of the show several years ago.

I have posted this before.

As for matrix numbers running in sequence in the aforementioned books. Matrix numbers are assigned to songs that are to be released. If they had not intention of releasing some songs why would they assign matrix numbers? Look at all the tracks that have been released in the last 20 years like Black Star, It's Diffrent Now any of the August 70 concerts - they all have matrix numbers from the time they were released not recorded.

Sun May 04, 2003 8:50 pm

Hi Greg

There was some talk of an audience tape on the old message board, but if my memory is correct those that supposedly had this tape were not prepared to make copies of it.
It’s possible that if there is an audience tape in circulation it could be incorrectly dated. I also think the fact that the so-called missing songs are the same as the ones from the afternoon show that were originally slated for the “Fool “ album explains how this rumour got started.

I don’t know where the rumour about “Steamroller Blues” came from though. That one is new to me, but as the song wasn’t part of Elvis’ live repertoire in June 1972, it’s safe to say that it wasn’t performed at the 8pm on June 10, 1972.

Sun May 04, 2003 9:08 pm

ForeverElvis,

I am familiar with what you have posted, having seen it numerous times regurgitated on the messageboards and websites. That is not what I am after. I want to see either the matrix numbers RCA assigned to the 'missing songs' or hear part of the audience tape. Can you do either of these two things, or at least provide more details or a source for the audience tape to put this to rest?

I could easily say I have a tape of Elvis singing Rock Around The Clock in South Bend in the 70's and post this on every webpage, but without making even a small clip of it available, this has little substance.

Please note, I am not suggesting you are taking part in such a fabrication, I know you are trying to help me out by posting the details you are aware of. I am just trying to get at the truth, because all we ever see are details with no substance other than hearsay.

No offense, and kindest regards,

Greg

<Here's the details of what has been edited from the June 10th.1972 evening
show at MSG

2001 THEME- running time 1.06 was edited out (the total time is written
here,while compared to what is on the LP)
Until It's Time For You To Go-running time 2.45 min. was edited out
Polk Salad Annie-was edited by 20 secs
Blue Suede Shoes-running time 1.05 min was edited out
Suspicious Minds-was edited by 58 secs
Introductions-running time 1.28 mins. was edited out (same comments as 2001
theme)
Closing Vamp:was 1.05 mins. was edited out(same as above)

The introductions was inserted after the 'Impossible Dream' on the LP but
was actually done after 'Suspicious Minds'.

This was timed from an audience recording of the show several years ago.

I have posted this before.

As for matrix numbers running in sequence in the aforementioned books. Matrix numbers are assigned to songs that are to be released. If they had not intention of releasing some songs why would they assign matrix numbers? Look at all the tracks that have been released in the last 20 years like Black Star, It's Diffrent Now any of the August 70 concerts - they all have matrix numbers from the time they were released not recorded.

Re: MSG edits

Sun May 04, 2003 9:08 pm

ForeverElvis wrote:As for matrix numbers running in sequence in the aforementioned books. Matrix numbers are assigned to songs that are to be released. If they had not intention of releasing some songs why would they assign matrix numbers? Look at all the tracks that have been released in the last 20 years like Black Star, It's Diffrent Now any of the August 70 concerts - they all have matrix numbers from the time they were released not recorded.


ForeverElvis,

If we look at the afternoon show from June 10, 1972 all the master serial numbers run in sequence, even though “I Can’t Stop Loving You” from this show was released on the “Welcome To My World” LP in 1977, and both “Reconsider Baby” and “I’ll Remember You” from the same show were first released on “A Legendary Performer Volume 4” in 1983. However, your other examples regarding how theses numbers are assigned are quite correct. This got me thinking that perhaps the songs from both MSG shows were all assigned master serial numbers back in 1972, before RCA had decided which MSG performance to use for the LP release.

On the subject of the audience recording, can you confirm whether you have actually heard the tape, or was this information passed on to you by another fan?

Steamroller Blues, OOPS!

Sun May 04, 2003 9:10 pm

Sorry that was my error. I meant Reconsider Baby. I got my Elvis Blues songs mixed up. That's how bad rumors get started :wink:

<I don’t know where the rumour about “Steamroller Blues” came from though. That one is new to me, but as the song wasn’t part of Elvis’ live repertoire in June 1972, it’s safe to say that it wasn’t performed at the 8pm on June 10, 1972.

Sun May 04, 2003 9:56 pm

Could the missing seconds be from the ending of SUSPIOUS MINDS? I always thougth it was rather short.

Sun May 04, 2003 11:45 pm

I don't have the audiotape of this show, if I did I would have no problem distributing it.

The information I have, that was posted. I have had for several years and comes from a very reliable source that I don't doubt when it comes to these things.

I believe the edits i mentioned are real, can i provide proof to everyone on this board - No.

One other tidbit - what is most likely - Until it's Time for you to go and Blue Suede shoes were performed at every show on this tour - why would he drop them at this performance? Also, why would Suspicious minds be considerable shorter at this show than any other - as well with the 2001 theme. Another point the introductions were always done at the same time each performance, why would it be changed for this show?

Last but not least - the original album runs 52 mins (or there about) in 1972 his shows clocked in at 58-65 mins like clockwork.

It isn't about being right or wrong - it is about what is most likely the truth. The circumstancial evidance points to the possibility that these edits were made - remember the very first complete performance ever released by RCA was the Afternoon in the Garden CD. When Elvis was alive all his concert LP's were edited - Aloha, Memphis, MSG, On Stage, In Person.

just my two bits

Thanks

Mon May 05, 2003 12:41 am

ForeverElvis,

Thanks for providing more details about your point of view. Good points, one and all.

I can believe that the running order would be changed for the LP, this is a necessity when mastering for vinyl when you need to have all the sides the right length.

I can even believe that 2001, PSA, Suspicious Minds, introductions, and closing vamp were edited a bit to free up space on the sides and because some of the excitement of the longer version of PSA and SM may not trasnlate well to a record without the visual excitement that comes from seeing the Big E in person.

I'd also believe that a bit of nothing between many songs was edited out, you know all those times the artist gets a drink or walks around killing time while the guitar player tunes up or whatever. Given the above, there could be a few more minutes added to this show to bring it up to about his standard length set without adding the 'missing' songs.

Now, you say that Until it's Time For You to Go and Blue Suede Shoes were done at every show on this tour. I don't have all the tapes, but the Elvisconcerts.com site indicates this was not played at June 17, 1972 (2:30 pm) Chicago, IL. show, so maybe it was occasionally dropped. According to the same website, Blue Suede Shoes was not included June 15, 1972 (8:30 pm) Milwaukee, WI, June 17, 1972 (2:30 pm) Chicago, IL, June 17, 1972 (8:30 pm) Chicago, IL, or June 18, 1972 (8:30 pm) Fort Worth, TX. Given that, if it is true, then the fact that he didn't play these songs at the second MSG show should not be a surprise to anyone.

All any of this does is provide a lot of speculation until someone provided the matrix numbers for the missing songs, or the alleged audience tape shows up. I'd like to put this issue to rest, but again I will say that it seems everyone knows someone with the audience tape, but no one ever has it in their hands to provide the proof.

I'd say I am still skeptical about the 'missing songs'.

Regards,

Greg

Mon May 05, 2003 5:40 pm

My own "personal jury" is still out on whether "Until It's Time For You To Go" and "Blue Suede Shoes" were performed at the evening show. I've been meaning to e-mail Phil Gelormine about this (if anyone could give us a definitive answer it's Phil, he attended all 4 MSG shows and published a 10th anniversary scrapbook on the shows) but I just haven't gotten around to it. In the scrapbook he lists the setlists of all 4 shows and these 2 songs aren't included in the setlists for the 6/10/72 evening show. There is also an interview with Joan Deary, and the tenor of the conversation seems to suggest the evening show record release was the complete show. As far as the matrix numbers, here's my personal take: the following performances from the afternoon show have matrix numbers similar to those of the evening show (per Tunzi's Elvis sessions II): 2001 theme; Until It's Time For You To Go; Blue Suede Shoes; I'll Remember You. This being the case I'm of the opinion that, before the decision was made to squeeze the evening show release onto a single album, these songs were intended to be released (edited into the evening show) as part of double album. Again, this is just my opinion, but it makes sense of the matrix numbers anomaly.

Mon May 05, 2003 5:54 pm

It would be nice to get official confirmation on this one way or another. Personally, the information in Ernst’s book is enough to convince me that there were no songs edited out of the evening show. If there had been, I see no reason why Ernst wouldn’t have made reference to this in his book. It isn’t as though we are talking about rare live songs here that were only performed once or twice, and might prove to be a money-spinner for BMG in the future. Therefore, I see no reason why Ernst would withhold any information with regards to missing tracks from this show.