Anything about Elvis
More than 30 Million visitors can't be wrong

A question about "Crawfish"

Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:32 pm

I was listening to the version of "Crawfish" on the new FTD Book+CD of "King Creole" and I noticed that Kitty White's vocals are very low in the mix (and with a lot of echo too.)
I'm more familiar with the version on "The Complete '50s Masters," where her voice is way more upfront an with much less echo (if any.)
Now, I guess the FTD version is probably the original mix, but I'm not sure, since I got rid of my early "King Creole" CD (from 1988 I think it was) as soon as I got the '50s box in the late '90s.

Anyway, back to the question...
Listening to the FTD CD something caught my attention: We all know these sessions were recorded in binaural (second channel used for orchestra and overdubs or whatever) but, as far as I know, the only sources availables now are the mono masters (plus a few outtakes of some songs, "Crawfish" NOT included) and the acetate of the unedited master, then... how did they do different mixes of Kitty White's vocals with what's left? It's imposible having just mono masters... :-?

Image
Kitty White

AURAL EVIDENCE HERE:
http://www.elvis-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55630&p=808317#p808317
Last edited by JimmyCool on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:13 pm

Could it be they have both mono-tapes, the one with the original mix (Kitty White low in the mix with echo) AND the "dry" version?

IIRC they found tapes for the acetates they used on "Essential Elvis Volume 3 - Hits Like Never Before" in 1990?

That would explain the use of the "dry" version on the 50s Box set...

Pure speculation though!

I think you know this one, Jimmy, but let me post it here:

"The movie version contains extra vocals by Kitty White in the 2nd verse, that are not on the Unedited Master (as pressed on acetate) or the Record Version.
As these sessions were recorded in Binaural (2nd channel used for Orchestra, Overdubs etc.), it's possible that Kitty White's vocals were left out of the original unedited take AND Record Version, but kept in for the movie version. They're basically different mixes."

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:27 pm

Also, the complete version was not included on the recent FTD. A bad oversight.

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:22 pm

wasnt the unedited master found on a reel?

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:08 pm

ritchie valens wrote:wasnt the unedited master found on a reel?


Probably, but it's not found on FTD!

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:40 pm

JimmyCool wrote:I was listening to the version of "Crawfish" on the new FTD Book+CD of "King Creole" and I noticed that Kitty White's vocals are very low in the mix (and with a lot of echo too.)

I'm more familiar with the version on "The Complete '50s Masters," where her voice is way more upfront an with much less echo (if any.)

[snip]

... how did they do different mixes of Kitty White's vocals with what's left? It's impossible having just mono masters... :-?

Radio Recorders had binaural ("safety") capability, so the film master and the unedited acetate performance clearly derive from different mix-downs of the safety reels. The acetate is dryer, more raw than the film mix. Note that all acetates had to have been cut by Thorne Nogar at Radio Recorders.

1/15/58
Track F - T7 Crawfish (basic) 2:45

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:04 pm

It would seem that with "Crawfish", the binaural tapes were recorded so that the Elvis master track would be in mono on one channel, with the second channel being Kitty White's vocal track, since most of the difference in mix concerns only White's vocal.

I can think of 4 alternate mixes of Crawfish off the top of my head:
1)The album version, as heard on the Franklin Mint set.
2) The 50's box version- which may be the version from the 7" EP (I need to check)
3) The extended acetate with more Kitty White
4) The movie mix, which features White singing a duet with Elvis during the verses.

The fact that the basic tracks sounds essentially the same would suggest that White's vocal occupies it's own track (the way Elvis's does in 'Baby I Don't Care', so even if the binaural master is found we wouldn't get a "stereo" effect like we do on some of the Jailhouse sessions.

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:33 pm

Just checked the EP, it's the same as the echo drenched album master.

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:11 am

There is no evidence anywhere that the King Creole sessions were recorded in binaural.....there was no need, the stereo requirement for sVistaVision was dropped by the time King Creole went into production.

The sessions were made and paid for by Paramount...not RCA.

The tape legend states recorded "two track"...don't be fooled by this. This is still mono recorded on both tracks running in the same direction. Some will remember David Bendeth when talking about the mono tracks restoration how the picked the best mono track from the two track tape.

Any back-up tapes would also be in mono.

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:35 am

KiwiAlan wrote:There is no evidence anywhere that the King Creole sessions were recorded in binaural...

Ha ha ha!

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:54 am

KiwiAlan wrote:Some will remember David Bendeth when talking about the mono tracks restoration how the picked the best mono track from the two track tape.

I'm not so sure you're remembering this correctly. From my understand the tape is 1-track mono and at transfer was played back on a 2-track tape machine thus creating a digital 2-track transfer where one or t'other could be picked in case of drop-outs.

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:24 am

I love this song and Kitty's contribution to it.

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:10 am

phpBB [video]



This one uploaded by SophyaAgain August 27, 2010 is pretty good.

This is probably one of the best openings to an Elvis movie.

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:14 am

luckyjackson1 wrote:Could it be they have both mono-tapes, the one with the original mix (Kitty White low in the mix with echo) AND the "dry" version?

Maybe this could be the case, but not having heard or read about it anywhere... I really don't know.

drjohncarpenter wrote:Radio Recorders had binaural ("safety") capability, so the film master and the unedited acetate performance clearly derive from different mix-downs of the safety reels. The acetate is dryer, more raw than the film mix. Note that all acetates had to have been cut by Thorne Nogar at Radio Recorders.

1/15/58
Track F - T7 Crawfish (basic) 2:45

I know that, the film master, the film version and the acetate have three different mixes (extra vocals by Kitty White on the second.)
But as far as we know, we only had the studio master and the acetate (unedited version.)

I made an A-B test of the version on "The Complete '50s Masters" and the "FTD" version and I noticed some things:
- The version on "The Complete '50s Masters" runs almost 0.5% too slow (0.46% to be exact) so I had to speeded it up a little.
- The version on "FTD" have a fade in and a fade out (the other version has a fade out too, but here it's more prominent.)
- The version on "FTD" has a lot of echo, specially on Kitty White's vocals and she's down in the mix. On the "Complete '50s Masters" her voice is upfront, same as Elvis, sounding like a duet.

I uploaded this sample for you all, so you can hear the differences by yourself:
CRAWFISH
(Headphones are recommended)

Right Channel = "Crawfish" (The King Of Rock 'n' Roll - The Complete '50s Masters)
Left Channel = "Crawfish" (King Creole - FTD)

Interesting, huh? :wink:
Last edited by JimmyCool on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:28 am, edited 5 times in total.

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:40 am

Ernst has stated that the Master Tape to the Acetate Version of "Crawfish" was found and that he is waiting for the proper place to release it? I would have thought that this new FTD Book/cd would have been a great place but maybe it is being held for the Classic FTD version of the Soundtrack. Hopefully a few other surprises will be included.

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:02 am

I repeat there is no evidence of binaural recording.

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:08 am

KiwiAlan wrote:I repeat there is no evidence of binaural recording.

WWE: Were the KING CREOLE sessions possibly recorded in BINAURAL?
Ernst Jorgensen: Yes, but no tapes are known to exist.

Source: World Wide Elvis


How could they mix Kitty White's vocals if not recorded in binaural?
See my post above and hear the sample. :)

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:18 am

JimmyCool wrote:
KiwiAlan wrote:I repeat there is no evidence of binaural recording.

WWE: Were the KING CREOLE sessions possibly recorded in BINAURAL?
Ernst Jorgensen: Yes, but no tapes are known to exist.

Source: World Wide Elvis



I disagree with Ernst on this................that's why no takes have ever surfaced.

Just like Elvis Christmas Album and Elvis.

There were two recording studios at Radio Recorders. One, the bigger one was, was equipped for binaural the smaller annex was not in 1958.

(Kitty Whites contribution was recorded at Paramount)

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:05 am

I'm not so sure you're remembering this correctly. From my understand the tape is 1-track mono and at transfer was played back on a 2-track tape machine thus creating a digital 2-track transfer where one or t'other could be picked in case of drop-outs.


Matthew, I recall hearing this too. This sounds likely. Or at least it's a good possibility.

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:47 am

But if you recorded a mono track onto a two track ...........wouldn't each of the two tracks sound the same as one another

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:53 am

KiwiAlan wrote:But if you recorded a mono track onto a two track ...........wouldn't each of the two tracks sound the same as one another

Sure.

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:24 pm

JimmyCool wrote:
luckyjackson1 wrote:Could it be they have both mono-tapes, the one with the original mix (Kitty White low in the mix with echo) AND the "dry" version?
Maybe they did, but I haven't heard or read about it anywhere... so I don't know

drjohncarpenter wrote:Radio Recorders had binaural ("safety") capability, so the film master and the unedited acetate performance clearly derive from different mix-downs of the safety reels. The acetate is dryer, more raw than the film mix. Note that all acetates had to have been cut by Thorne Nogar at Radio Recorders.

1/15/58
Track F - T7 Crawfish (basic) 2:45
I know that, the film master, the film version and the acetate have three different mixes (extra vocals by Kitty White on the second.)
But as far as we know, we only had the studio master and the acetate (unedited version.)

I made an A-B test of the version on "The Complete '50s Masters" and the "FTD" version and I noticed some things:
- The version on "The Complete '50s Masters" runs almost 0.5% too slow (0.46% to be exact) so I had to speeded it up a little.
- The version on "FTD" have a fade in and a fade out (the other version has a fade out too, but here it's more prominent.)
- The version on "FTD" has a lot of echo, specially on Kitty White's vocals and she's down in the mix. On the "Complete '50s Masters" her voice is upfront, same as Elvis, sounding like a duet.

I uploaded this sample for you all, so you can hear the differences by yourself:
CRAWFISH
(Headphones are recommended)

Right Channel = "Crawfish" (The King Of Rock 'n' Roll - The Complete '50s Masters)
Left Channel = "Crawfish" (King Creole - FTD)

Interesting, huh? :wink:


KiwiAlan wrote:(Kitty Whites contribution was recorded at Paramount)
Apparently ONLY the parts not featured on the unedited acetate... And, as far as I know, the only vocals overdubs done after the sessions were "Lover Doll" and "Steadfast, Loyal And True" done by the Jordanaires on June 19 and a few extra backings done on location (or maybe post-production.)
KiwiAlan wrote:But if you recorded a mono track onto a two track ...........wouldn't each of the two tracks sound the same as one another
That's my point... In the case of Kitty White's part, she apparently recorded her vocals of the master version on the same date as Elvis' (January 15,) so if it wasn't overdubed later (and I'm pretty sure it wasn't) then a binaural tape was needed to produce two different mixes of the same song!

So, as KingOfTheJungle pointed out earlier, we have 4 different versions of "Crawish":
1. Unedited master acetate.
2. King Creole (RCA LPM 1884 and FTD.)
3. The King Of Rock 'n' Roll - The Complete '50s Masters.
4. The movie version (unedited master + extra vocals by Kitty White on location... or maybe post-production.)

There's nothing weird with 1. and 4., but having the tapes lost/misplaced (mono or binaural), then 2. and 3. should have the SAME mix, instead of Kitthy more upfront or back in the mix...
Any more theories?
Last edited by JimmyCool on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:57 pm

When I first heard the 50s box version I thought they simply "cleaned up" the acetate they used previously on Essential 3 and cut Kitty White's a-capella singing...

Hey, I was seventeen...! :oops: :D

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:08 pm

Image

Kiity White sang her movie vocal's on location in New Orleans

Davide

Re: A question about "Crawfish"

Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:04 pm

KiwiAlan wrote:
JimmyCool wrote:
KiwiAlan wrote:I repeat there is no evidence of binaural recording.

WWE: Were the KING CREOLE sessions possibly recorded in BINAURAL?
Ernst Jorgensen: Yes, but no tapes are known to exist.

Source: World Wide Elvis



I disagree with Ernst on this................

Ha ha ha ha ha!


davide wrote:Image

Kiity White sang her movie vocal's on location in New Orleans

Thanks for posting the sheet from Thorne's mix-down to mono.

I'm pretty sure the Kitty White "Crawfish" vocal you reference is just the live segment from early March heard on location in the movie, not the studio master recorded in January.