Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

[This is a continuation of the thread's original post.]

Following is an analysis of songs on the Franklin Mint set that have been -- and have not been -- restored to "perfect" mono, both in the mono and stereo eras.

This analysis allows us to consider patterns in restoration work. It also provides a quick -- but far from 100 percent reliable -- check of masters during the stereo era for which mono masters might have been selected.

These songs are sorted according to their placement on the Complete Masters set.

Songs from the mono era that are in "perfect" mono
Disc 1
_Harbor Lights
_I Love You Because
_That’s All Right
_Blue Moon
_I’ll Never Let You Go
_I Don’t Care If the Sun Don’t Shine
_Just Because
_Good Rockin’ Tonight
_Baby Let’s Play House
_I’m Left, You’re Right, She’s Gone
_I Forgot to Remember to Forget
_Mystery Train
_Trying to Get to You
_I Got a Woman
_Heartbreak Hotel
_Money Honey
_I’m Counting on You
_I Was the One

Disc 2
_Blue Suede Shoes
_My Baby Left Me
_One-Sided Love Affair
_So Glad You’re Mine
_I’m Gonna Sit Right Down and Cry (Over You)
_Tutti Frutti
_Lawdy, Miss Clawdy
_Shake, Rattle and Roll
_I Want You, I Need You, I Love You
_Hound Dog
_Don’t Be Cruel
_Any Way You Want Me (That’s How I Will Be)
_We’re Gonna Move
_Love Me Tender
_Poor Boy
_Let Me
_Love Me
_How Do You Think I Feel
_How’s the World Treating You
_When My Blue Moon Turns to Gold Again
_Long Tall Sally
_Old Shep
_Paralyzed
_Anyplace Is Paradise
_Ready Teddy
_First in Line
_Rip It Up

Disc 3
_(Let Me Be Your) Teddy Bear
_Don’t Leave Me Now
_I Beg of You
_One Night
_Jailhouse Rock
_Young and Beautiful
_I Want to Be Free
_(You’re So Square) Baby I Don’t Care

Disc 4
_Treat Me Nice
_Blue Christmas
_My Wish Came True
_White Christmas
_Here Comes Santa Claus (Right Down Santa Claus Lane)
_Silent Night
_Don’t
_O Little Town of Bethlehem
_Santa Bring My Baby Back (to Me)
_Santa Claus Is Back in Town
_I’ll Be Home for Christmas
_Hard Headed Woman
_Trouble
_New Orleans
_Crawfish
_Dixieland Rock
_Lover Doll, undubbed master (EP version) [also Lover Doll (LP version) on Disc 28]
_Don’t Ask Me Why
_As Long as I Have You
_King Creole
_Young Dreams
_Steadfast, Loyal and True
_Doncha Think It’s Time (single master) [also Doncha Think It’s Time (LP master) on Disc 28]
_Your Cheatin’ Heart
_Wear My Ring Around Your Neck
_I Need Your Love Tonight
_A Big Hunk o’ Love
_Ain’t That Loving You Baby
_(Now and Then There’s) A Fool Such as I
_I Got Stung

Songs from the stereo era that are in “perfect” mono
Disc 7
_Follow That Dream
_What a Wonderful Life
_I’m Not the Marrying Kind
_Sound Advice

Disc 16
_Blue Christmas/One Night [from the 1968 Comeback Special]
_Tiger Man [from the 1968 Comeback Special]
_Medley: Lawdy, Miss Clawdy/Baby, What You Want Me to Do ... [from the 1968 Comeback Special]

Songs from the mono era that are not in "perfect" mono
Disc 1
_Blue Moon of Kentucky
_Milkcow Blues Boogie
_You’re a Heartbreaker

Disc 2
_Playing for Keeps

Disc 3
_I Believe
_Tell Me Why
_Got a Lot o’ Livin’ to Do
_All Shook Up
_Mean Woman Blues
_(There’ll Be) Peace in the Valley (for Me)
_That’s When Your Heartaches Begin
_Take My Hand, Precious Lord
_Party
_Lonesome Cowboy
_Hot Dog
_It Is No Secret (What God Can Do)
_Blueberry Hill
_Have I Told You Lately That I Love You
_Is It So Strange
_True Love
_I Need You So
_Loving You
_When It Rains, It Really Pours
_Don’t Leave Me Now

Songs that are not available on the Franklin Mint set to analyze
Disc 1
_Tomorrow Night
_I’m Left, You’re Right, She’s Gone (slow version)
_When It Rains, It Really Pours (Sun version)

Disc 4
_Danny
_____________________________________

For reference points, here are the songs from the mono era that are not in "perfect" mono that, in my judgment, are the closest and one of the farthest from mono.

Closest: Hot Dog

One of the farthest: (It Is No Secret) What God Can Do.

These clips allow us to listen to just that part of the music that is different between the two channels. The more you hear, the more information there is that is not in mono. Thus, all tracks in the collection that are in "perfect" mono are silent when examined in this way.
Last edited by elvissessions on Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:51 am, edited 5 times in total.



Claus

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Claus »

Most mono cds released in the cd era are not in "perfect" mono. It just that a stereo head was used during the transfer and that the tape was slightly out of alignment. When this happens, some engineers pick the best channel while others leave it as is. Unless the difference is huge between the two channels, it should not matter.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

This is true.

However, as you can see from the listings, there are some interesting patterns and discrepancies that emerge.

That is what I'm trying to trace.

Your point is also why I included examples of how close it can be to mono and not be mono (Hot Dog) and how "far" the farthest apart are (It Is No Secret and, though not sampled here, Playing for Keeps). I hope what people can hear is that though a mono recording really should be in mono, the amount of out of sync information can range from extremely tiny to just tiny.

I'm too tired now to get into a lot of close examination, but I find it intriguing, for example, which Sun tracks have not been restored in exactly the same fashion. Also, the patches of songs that go one way or the other interest me.

How could this be useful?

Well, to begin with: Test the Budd masters. If there is a track here that is not true mono, and his version is. Then very quickly we're on to something.

How much that "something" matters is up to the individual, but as such things have been the subject of much speculation, this is a starting point.
Last edited by elvissessions on Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.



Matthew

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Matthew »

Interesting. So what does this tell us? If we are working on the assumption "all tracks have been re-transferred from scratch (where a tape is available)" this would imply one of two things:

1) All mono 1-track tapes (or full-track tapes) have been played back on a stereo tape machine to transfer to digital. Then, in the "true mono" cases the mastering engineer has chosen one side of the transfer to remaster from. Those that display 2-track transfer remnants perhaps show transfers that are fine on both channels. If this is the case its a little frustrating as a mono head should really be used to transfer mono tapes.

2) Some tracks were transferred on a mono head and others on a stereo head. I don't find this likely unless the transfers originate from various time periods, by different engineers doing the work.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Dan_T »

Anybody seen the Sony produced "Advance Copy" of the Complete Masters set being shown on an unmentionable site ?

Looks good, and should be worth a few Bob should anybody get their hands on a copy !


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

Oh, great ... now i get to try to figure out which unmentionable site that might be.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Dan_T »

elvissessions wrote:Oh, great ... now i get to try to figure out which unmentionable site that might be.

Think the first one that became unmentionable some years back. :D

PS...Who are these "Special Advance Copies" made for and how would you get hold of one ?


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by KiwiAlan »

Thanks for that alert.

Looks interesting


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Dan_T »

You're welcome, some might argue that the CD's will be better protected in the Advance Copy.

I'm not looking forward to sliding them in and out of the cardboard sleeves on the proper set.

I want one of those advance copies ! :D


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by KiwiAlan »

With such a pricey set....why they are not using jewel case is unfathomable


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

Interesting. So what does this tell us?
I wish it were practical to share all of these tracks because there are some interesting things that happen along the way.

One that I'm thinking about right now is Milkcow Blues, which goes along in perfect mono -- not something that happens just by chance, really -- and then suddenly "slips" out of it. ... Now, what does that mean? A splice between versions? I don't know. Maybe nothing.

I'll try to post a sample of this example later tonight.

It's true a lot of these things don't really alter our lives significantly, but if it helps with the detective work on what's going on with the tracks, it can be fascinating.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Mike Windgren »

Hi there!! :D :D :D.
elvissessions wrote:Oh, great ... now i get to try to figure out which unmentionable site that might be.
Here you are my friend :wink:. Personally I don´t like the way the cd´s are going to be housed :evil:. Bye for now :smt006.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Dan_T »

Yay...nice one Mike !


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by N880EP »

Mike Windgren wrote:Hi there!! :D :D :D.
elvissessions wrote:Oh, great ... now i get to try to figure out which unmentionable site that might be.
Here you are my friend :wink:. Personally I don´t like the way the cd´s are going to be housed :evil:. Bye for now :smt006.


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VERY, VERY, VERY, . . . . . NICE!!

Thanks for the photos (Mike & The Unmentionable One)!


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... just a fan ....


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Deke Rivers II »

Claus wrote:
Matthew wrote:Syncing up the intros to the following tracks show no divergences in playback as one would expect with different tape transfers:


His Latest Flame
In y opinion, His latest Flame is so different compared to the SFE ftd that I don't even know if it's the same mix. I was shocked when I heard it on the Elvis 75 box. I prefer the version on the ftd as I think this song is one of the few let-downs on the FM set.
I agree.....and there is an unclearness about it too! Matter of fact there are several on this 75 box set that do not sound quite right.



Matthew

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Matthew »

His Latest Flame sounds like exactly the same mix.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Deke Rivers II »

Dan_T wrote:
elvissessions wrote:Oh, great ... now i get to try to figure out which unmentionable site that might be.

Think the first one that became unmentionable some years back. :D

PS...Who are these "Special Advance Copies" made for and how would you get hold of one ?
That's what I want to know! Do some of you ever feel like you've spent so much time and money on buying all of this same material over and over that a nice "advance promotional" gift would be greaty received and almost due you because of all the loyalty.......oh well...guess I can go on dreaming! ;)


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Mike C »

Mike Windgren wrote:Hi there!! :D :D :D.
elvissessions wrote:Oh, great ... now i get to try to figure out which unmentionable site that might be.
Here you are my friend :wink:. Personally I don´t like the way the cd´s are going to be housed :evil:. Bye for now :smt006.


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Oh man, I want my copy already. Did the special promo set also come with the book?


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Claus

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Claus »

Matthew wrote:His Latest Flame sounds like exactly the same mix.
Then the new mastering is seriously messed up.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by KiwiAlan »

Claus wrote:
Matthew wrote:His Latest Flame sounds like exactly the same mix.
Then the new mastering is seriously messed up.
In this event don't we deserve a full and frank explanation from Ernst.

For those buying the master set a considerable sum of money is involved


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Mike S »

KiwiAlan wrote:With such a pricey set....why they are not using jewel case is unfathomable
I agree that it looks cheap, especially compared to the Beatles masters sets which featured mini LPs with incredible attention to detail, together with a high quality booklet providing a detailed overview (Mono masters) or in the case of the stereo masters, individual digipaks featuring original cover art, each with its own booklet containing rare and unpublished photos. However the reason for this is hardly unfathomable.

Here's the bit you're missing: Minimum outlay = maximum return. After all, it's Elvis fans we're talking about here, they'll buy anything....right?

Your call.



Matthew

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Matthew »

Claus wrote:
Matthew wrote:His Latest Flame sounds like exactly the same mix.
Then the new mastering is seriously messed up.
I cannot fathom how you're coming to this conclusion - the EQ is vertually identical between the FTD and 75. The mix is identical. Which 75 set is your source? UK? USA? Can you post a sample?


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

As mentioned earlier, here is that sample from my mono test of Milkcow Blues Boogie.

This one struck me as interesting, though whether there is really any significance or not, I don't know.

As you'll hear, the track goes along silently -- true mono -- for about 21 seconds, then suddenly it slips out.

I don't believe things accidentally fall into perfect alignment for 21 seconds in the real world, so the question is what happened after that 21 seconds or so?

Perhaps it makes no practical difference. I'm just curious ... a splice? I don't know.

As you'll hear, it's still very close to mono -- but not quite.

Just strikes me as odd.

Milkcow Blues Boogie mono test



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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by minel »

Claus wrote:
Matthew wrote:
His Latest Flame sounds like exactly the same mix.

Then the new mastering is seriously messed up.

KiwiAlan
In this event don't we deserve a full and frank explanation from Ernst.

Since you are not buying it why would Ernst owe you an explanation?
Don´t you get tired of trying to come up with new stuff to critizise Ernst and FTD?
Why not buy what you like and skip the rest?
Just a thought.



Claus

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Claus »

Matthew wrote:
Claus wrote:
Matthew wrote:His Latest Flame sounds like exactly the same mix.
Then the new mastering is seriously messed up.
I cannot fathom how you're coming to this conclusion - the EQ is vertually identical between the FTD and 75. The mix is identical. Which 75 set is your source? UK? USA? Can you post a sample?
I just listened to it again and it is the same mix. I still don't like the mastering...