Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

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Matthew

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Matthew »

I've often wondered about how the album master was compiled for "Elvis Country" For example - each 16 track tape needed to be mixed to 2-track stereo. In addition each track need to have "I Was Born About 10,000 Years Ago" cross-faded across the intros and outtros of each track (except for each side opener). The only way I see this happening it by mixing each track individually to 2-track, setting up two playback machines and then playing off each side by dubbing down to a final 2-track album master, doing the cross-fades live. That would imply that original stereo mixes sans the cross-fades would exist for each track. As far as I know 'they' have never been released.

Alternatively the mixes where bounced down to another multitrack with the cross-faded "Born" track punched in on other tracks. Either way it would still imply original 2-track mixes for all the album tracks.

There's no other way I can visualise it being done. Thoughts?



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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by minkahed »

mbk1978 wrote:
Sebastian E wrote:
The "Love, Elvis" version of "There Goes My Everything" sounds like the LP mix without the linking excerpts of "I Was Born..."
Good call.

I just compared the 2005 "Love, Elvis" version of "There Goes My Everything" to the 2001 "50 Greatest Love Songs" and "The Country Side Of Elvis" and Vic's mastering is head and shoulders above the former.

Now, onto the FM set for another A/B test ...


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

With regards to the clipped intro on "Promised Land" on the Mint set - is it possible its sitting on the tail end of the previous track? ie. if one starts the song, then winds back to the end of the last track, does the intro become complete?
Unfortunately, no sign of the clipped material on the tracks preceding Promised Land or the overdubbed Tomorrow Night. It appears those moments are completely MIA.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Sebastian E »

Matthew wrote:I've often wondered about how the album master was compiled for "Elvis Country" For example - each 16 track tape needed to be mixed to 2-track stereo. In addition each track need to have "I Was Born About 10,000 Years Ago" cross-faded across the intros and outtros of each track (except for each side opener). The only way I see this happening it by mixing each track individually to 2-track, setting up two playback machines and then playing off each side by dubbing down to a final 2-track album master, doing the cross-fades live. That would imply that original stereo mixes sans the cross-fades would exist for each track. As far as I know 'they' have never been released.

Alternatively the mixes where bounced down to another multitrack with the cross-faded "Born" track punched in on other tracks. Either way it would still imply original 2-track mixes for all the album tracks.

There's no other way I can visualise it being done. Thoughts?
I had always assumed that the 'Born' snippets were added at mixing stage (reason being that these songs were obviously remixed for the 70s box set). However the two alternatives you presented seem more plausible. Otherwise each side of the 'Elvis, Country' LP would have had to be mixed as one track, right?

Last night I compared 'Elvis Country' and 'Love, Elvis' again. The mixes of 'There Goes My Everything' are identical. I think we can conclude that the original stereo mixes for the 'Elvis County' tracks (without 'I Was Born...') must be out there somewhere. Maybe they could not be located during the production of the 70s box set. But at least 'There Goes My Everything' was obviously available in recent years. As this appears to be the original stereo mix, in my opinion it should be used for the Sony set.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Sebastian E »

minkahed wrote:
mbk1978 wrote:
Sebastian E wrote:
The "Love, Elvis" version of "There Goes My Everything" sounds like the LP mix without the linking excerpts of "I Was Born..."
Good call.

I just compared the 2005 "Love, Elvis" version of "There Goes My Everything" to the 2001 "50 Greatest Love Songs" and "The Country Side Of Elvis" and Vic's mastering is head and shoulders above the former.

Now, onto the FM set for another A/B test ...
minkahed, which mixes are contained on '50 Greatest love Songs' and 'The Country Side of Elvis'? I don't have either cd unfortunately.

It would be interesting to know if the 'original' stereo mix of 'There Goes My Everything' has been used prior to the 'Love, Elvis' release.



Matthew

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Matthew »

Matthew wrote:There are others that I've previously identified (last year) with the same tell-tale signs but I need to revisit them to confirm - one important set of recordings that I won't publish until I've had a chance to re-review.
Okay - here goes. Does anyone remember (I can't track the post right now) when someone posted the ISRC numbers for "From Elvis in Memphis - Legacy Edition" tracks 1 to 12 showed what appeared to be older reference numbers? I think I know the reason for that. This evening I have reviewed tracks 1 to 12 (ie. the original album tracks) from the Legacy Edition against 1999's "Suspicious Minds - The Memphis Anthology". Every single one of them stays in sync. On paper this tells me both releases from the same digital source transfers. Now, disclaimer: it should be noted they are not the same remasters, the Legacy set has better sonics.

My copy of "From Nashville to Memphis" is currently in a box (recently moved house) so I can't rip these tracks to do further comparison but it does beg the question as to the age of the digital transfers used for these dozen recordings. 1999 at least - possibly 1993 if my gut is right.

Some may ask - but what of the other Legacy tracks? I was curious too. Whilst I haven't compared all recordings the next logical one was "I'll Be There" (track 13 on the Legacy set) - this one is clearly a new transfer, no question. I then moved onto the "Back in Memphis" tracks. I spot checked "Stranger in my Own Home Town" and "From a Jack to a King" - the first checked out, the latter.. hmm. Maybe I'm missing something - after all, I'm not a pro. I'd certainly welcome a second opinion.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Sebastian E »

mbk1978 wrote:
Sebastian E wrote:I just realized that the US single contained a mono mix. This is therefore the 'original mix'. I guess one has to consider the 'Elvis Country' mix as the 'original stereo mix'. Where did the 'Love, Elvis' mix come from? Was the song issued on a stereo single in Europe?

If this is the case, then it’s a shame that the FM set (and presumably the Sony set) features the 70’s box remix.

I have the original 45 (but not the picture sleeve), and the mono mixes of "I Really Don't Want To Know/There Goes My Everything" on the 45 are much closer to the 70's Box stereo remixes than the original LP stereo mixes. On "I Really Don't Want To Know", the ending doesn't fade out like it does on the 70's Box or the "Welcome To My World" CD; instead it ends with a final drum beat.

The "Love, Elvis" version of "There Goes My Everything" sounds like the LP mix without the linking excerpts of "I Was Born..."
Great information, thank you.

We really need something like 'Elvis - The Mono Singles Collection'. I know that the Bill Porter productions are only fold downs, but for those of us who grew up in the cd era it would be interesting to get the unique singles mixes (Radio Recorders, Nashville 1970 etc.) which are often quite different from their stereo counterpart.

But that's off-topic I gues ...


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by luckyjackson1 »

Sebastian, how about starting a new thread on this? Could be really interesting (as it already is)... :D

elvissessions, I guess it was you who said that the Producers for the Sony Set had to remaster songs from scratch, particularly "For The Millionth And The Last Time" comes to my mind (were there some more?).

Sorry for my ignorance, but: how can I bring this to my mind, what's the working process for a "scratch"? Thx in advance!


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Claus »

Sebastian E wrote:We really need something like 'Elvis - The Mono Singles Collection'. I know that the Bill Porter productions are only fold downs, but for those of us who grew up in the cd era it would be interesting to get the unique singles mixes (Radio Recorders, Nashville 1970 etc.) which are often quite different from their stereo counterpart.

But that's off-topic I gues ...
You haven't heard Burning Love until you have heard the mono mix from the promo single. It really cooks.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

elvissessions, I guess it was you who said that the Producers for the Sony Set had to remaster songs from scratch, particularly "For The Millionth And The Last Time" comes to my mind (were there some more?).

Ernst did not identify other examples, but he said the number was very small, that it was only five or six but that maybe Sebastian and Anesini would say six or seven. Regardless, it was a very small number.

Now, I do believe they *chose* more rebuilt masters than that because they opted for stereo mixes when only mono were originally released. So I assume Ernst meant just those that *had* to be redone.

Also, there are those tracks -- Viva Las Vegas is the example I always use -- that has to have some decision-making involved because there is no cohesive LP master to work from.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by luckyjackson1 »

Also, there are those tracks -- Viva Las Vegas is the example I always use -- that has to have some decision-making involved because there is no cohesive LP master to work from.
That's right. By the way, did you notice the error on "Santa Lucia" (Elvis becomes off-beat at one point) on the Sony budget release? In general it sounded a lot better than before but when I listened to it for the first time it kinda disturbed me, because it sounded really strange. Am I nitpicking on this a little too much?


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by frus75 »

Matthew wrote:
Matthew wrote:There are others that I've previously identified (last year) with the same tell-tale signs but I need to revisit them to confirm - one important set of recordings that I won't publish until I've had a chance to re-review.
Okay - here goes. Does anyone remember (I can't track the post right now) when someone posted the ISRC numbers for "From Elvis in Memphis - Legacy Edition" tracks 1 to 12 showed what appeared to be older reference numbers? I think I know the reason for that. This evening I have reviewed tracks 1 to 12 (ie. the original album tracks) from the Legacy Edition against 1999's "Suspicious Minds - The Memphis Anthology". Every single one of them stays in sync. On paper this tells me both releases from the same digital source transfers. Now, disclaimer: it should be noted they are not the same remasters, the Legacy set has better sonics.

My copy of "From Nashville to Memphis" is currently in a box (recently moved house) so I can't rip these tracks to do further comparison but it does beg the question as to the age of the digital transfers used for these dozen recordings. 1999 at least - possibly 1993 if my gut is right.

Some may ask - but what of the other Legacy tracks? I was curious too. Whilst I haven't compared all recordings the next logical one was "I'll Be There" (track 13 on the Legacy set) - this one is clearly a new transfer, no question. I then moved onto the "Back in Memphis" tracks. I spot checked "Stranger in my Own Home Town" and "From a Jack to a King" - the first checked out, the latter.. hmm. Maybe I'm missing something - after all, I'm not a pro. I'd certainly welcome a second opinion.
Roger Semon claims on the UK discography vol 2 that forthe 60's masters they remixed in 93 the whole 69 sessions, but trying to emulate the original mix. That's why they sounded almost the same (mix wise) but some songs sounded noticeably different (for example My Little Friend)


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by luckyjackson1 »

That's why they sounded almost the same (mix wise) but some songs sounded noticeably different (for example My Little Friend)
So they kinda created a "new" vintage mix for "My Little Friend" in '93?

I remember they created a mix back in 1970 for the "Almost In Love" budget LP. The mix for the 60s box set sounded really crappy to my ears... :smt002

Right now I can't recall if the song was released as a B-Side (Kentucky Rain?), and if so: what mix was used then? Can anybody help me out on this, pleeeeeease? :mrgreen:


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Matthew »

luckyjackson1 wrote:
That's why they sounded almost the same (mix wise) but some songs sounded noticeably different (for example My Little Friend)
So they kinda created a "new" vintage mix for "My Little Friend" in '93?

I remember they created a mix back in 1970 for the "Almost In Love" budget LP. The mix for the 60s box set sounded really crappy to my ears... :smt002

Right now I can't recall if the song was released as a B-Side (Kentucky Rain?), and if so: what mix was used then? Can anybody help me out on this, pleeeeeease? :mrgreen:
The single would be the mono mix - which is on the Legacy release.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by luckyjackson1 »

Ah, yes, thank you very much, Matthew! Completely forgot about that one... :oops:
We really need something like 'Elvis - The Mono Singles Collection'.
Agreed 100%.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Sebastian E »

Sorry, but I don't believe for a minute that the 69 session was remixed for the 60 box set. Just compare the original cd release of From Elvis in Memphis with the 60s box set. These are the same vintage mixes.

I do believe, though, that the Bill Porter Nashville recordings contained on the box set were sourced from the three track safety tapes (and thus remixed). Reason being that I recall that several years ago Roger Semon presented a video clip at a convention in Memphis which showed him in the studio in the early 90s remixing 'I'm Comin' Home' (IIRC). (I wasn't there, but audio of Roger presenting the clip circulated the MBs at the time).

Re. My Little Friend and Rubberneckin':

This has already been discussed on this MB some time ago. I believe that the American recordings were mixed into stereo soon after the sessions in one go (notable exception: Suspicious Minds). These are the mixes presented on the 60s box set. For Rubberneckin' and My Little Friend these original stereo mixes were however not used for the Camden releases. Instead, new stereo mixes were prepared for these.

I don't have evidence for this theory, though. It's just that the 60s box set mixes of these songs sound very much like the rest of the 69 recordings, wheras the Camden mixes are totally different (placement of drums, dry vocals).



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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Claus »

Sebastian E wrote:Re. My Little Friend and Rubberneckin':

This has already been discussed on this MB some time ago. I believe that the American recordings were mixed into stereo soon after the sessions in one go (notable exception: Suspicious Minds). These are the mixes presented on the 60s box set. For Rubberneckin' and My Little Friend these original stereo mixes were however not used for the Camden releases. Instead, new stereo mixes were prepared for these.

I don't have evidence for this theory, though. It's just that the 60s box set mixes of these songs sound very much like the rest of the 69 recordings, wheras the Camden mixes are totally different (placement of drums, dry vocals).
The Camden mix of My Little Friend is used on the FM set.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Sebastian E »

Good to know, thanks. This is the stereo mix released during E's lifetime, so I think it's rightfully used on the FM set.

Which one will be featured on the Sony set?


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by luckyjackson1 »

The Camden mix of My Little Friend is used on the FM set.
A wise choice.
Which one will be featured on the Sony set?
Hopefully the same! And please, without any clipping on the intro or some other errors!!!

And BTW, thanks for clarification, Sebastian! :D

IF they really remixed the 69 sessions for the 60s box set (which I actually also doubt), they would've re-created them kinda well (don't speak of remastering though).

I also like the 1970 remix of "Rubberneckin'" very much.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Sebastian E »

luckyjackson1 wrote:IF they really remixed the 69 sessions for the 60s box set (which I actually also doubt), they would've re-created them kinda well (don't speak of remastering though).
Exactly. That's why I don't think they were remixed. :D



Matthew

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Matthew »

Matthew wrote:
Matthew wrote:There are others that I've previously identified (last year) with the same tell-tale signs but I need to revisit them to confirm - one important set of recordings that I won't publish until I've had a chance to re-review.
Okay - here goes. Does anyone remember (I can't track the post right now) when someone posted the ISRC numbers for "From Elvis in Memphis - Legacy Edition" tracks 1 to 12 showed what appeared to be older reference numbers? I think I know the reason for that. This evening I have reviewed tracks 1 to 12 (ie. the original album tracks) from the Legacy Edition against 1999's "Suspicious Minds - The Memphis Anthology". Every single one of them stays in sync. On paper this tells me both releases from the same digital source transfers. Now, disclaimer: it should be noted they are not the same remasters, the Legacy set has better sonics.

My copy of "From Nashville to Memphis" is currently in a box (recently moved house) so I can't rip these tracks to do further comparison but it does beg the question as to the age of the digital transfers used for these dozen recordings. 1999 at least - possibly 1993 if my gut is right.

Some may ask - but what of the other Legacy tracks? I was curious too. Whilst I haven't compared all recordings the next logical one was "I'll Be There" (track 13 on the Legacy set) - this one is clearly a new transfer, no question. I then moved onto the "Back in Memphis" tracks. I spot checked "Stranger in my Own Home Town" and "From a Jack to a King" - the first checked out, the latter.. hmm. Maybe I'm missing something - after all, I'm not a pro. I'd certainly welcome a second opinion.
Follow-up - I've now dug out my 1993 60s Box and spot checked "Wearin'" and "I'll Hold You in my Heart" with those on the 2009 Legacy release. They appear to be from the same digital transfers. Sooooo yeeaahh.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Sebastian E »

Matthew, what is your opinion regarding the claim that remixes were used for the 60s box set? Can you compare the box set with the (1991?) release of FEIM (masterd by Dick Baxter)?


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Sebastian E »

Claus wrote:
Sebastian E wrote:We really need something like 'Elvis - The Mono Singles Collection'. I know that the Bill Porter productions are only fold downs, but for those of us who grew up in the cd era it would be interesting to get the unique singles mixes (Radio Recorders, Nashville 1970 etc.) which are often quite different from their stereo counterpart.

But that's off-topic I gues ...
You haven't heard Burning Love until you have heard the mono mix from the promo single. It really cooks.
Well, then I haven't heard Burning Love yet. :D

Has this mix ever been released officially? Or is it available on an 'import' cd? Would love to hear it.



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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by minel »

An "Elvis mono box collection" would be wonderful. There is so much more "punch" in the mono mixings.
No wonder the Beatles mono box sold out so quickly. I for one welcomed the mono tracks on the Legacy From Elvis in Memphis. There is so much to look forward to: the 30 CD set ,the Sun project and why not a mono set!


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by frus75 »

quoting from elvis uk 2 regarding the 60's masters:

"of course another issue...concerned that of remixing the 2,3,4 and 8 track masters they were using...where the original multi track tapes were found, how far was it felt desirable for the producers to go into remixing the tracks, thus producing a different sound from that found on the original recordings which, it may be assumed, had the general support of Elvis, his management and the people at RCA? As a result, the producers worked on a number of different mixes...it was decided to try to achieve a balance between the best clarity while replicating the original mix as far as possible...and so, although there were some discernible differences in sound on some tracks, in essence the remixing was fairly faithful to the originals...in the case of Elvis is back,...the only tapes...were the 2-track masters...however, the mix on these tracks was never regarded as a problem"


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