Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

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Claus

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Claus »

Sebastian E wrote:I just realized that the US single contained a mono mix. This is therefore the 'original mix'. I guess one has to consider the 'Elvis Country' mix as the 'original stereo mix'. Where did the 'Love, Elvis' mix come from? Was the song issued on a stereo single in Europe?

If this is the case, then it’s a shame that the FM set (and presumably the Sony set) features the 70’s box remix.
The mix on Love, Elvis is VERY similar to the Elvis Country album mix.



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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by minkahed »

Claus wrote:
Sebastian E wrote:I just realized that the US single contained a mono mix. This is therefore the 'original mix'. I guess one has to consider the 'Elvis Country' mix as the 'original stereo mix'. Where did the 'Love, Elvis' mix come from? Was the song issued on a stereo single in Europe?

If this is the case, then it’s a shame that the FM set (and presumably the Sony set) features the 70’s box remix.
The mix on Love, Elvis is VERY similar to the Elvis Country album mix.
How do you guys find the time to differentiate all this technicality ?

Good stuff ...


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Sebastian E »

Claus wrote:
Sebastian E wrote:I just realized that the US single contained a mono mix. This is therefore the 'original mix'. I guess one has to consider the 'Elvis Country' mix as the 'original stereo mix'. Where did the 'Love, Elvis' mix come from? Was the song issued on a stereo single in Europe?

If this is the case, then it’s a shame that the FM set (and presumably the Sony set) features the 70’s box remix.
The mix on Love, Elvis is VERY similar to the Elvis Country album mix.
Agreed. That's why I think that it's a vintage mix. But why was it prepared in the first place given that the US single contained a mono mix?



Claus

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Claus »

Don't know. It might - as you suggested - have been used for an international single release. Don't Cry Daddy was released in stereo in Germany.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Sebastian E »

Maybe someone with good connections to Ernst can help us out here?

Moreover, does anyone have any comments regarding the different mixes of 'Padre'?



Matthew

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Matthew »

Are we to discuss tape transfers here?


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

Sure, Matthew ... I'm trying to restrict myself to things that are "definitive" and "incontestable" for the original post ... or as "definitive" and "inconstestable" as things can be for folks like us who aren't in the inner sanctum.

But I think it will be interesting to see what the tipping point for that is on some observations.

I find some of the things you've been sharing with me very interesting, and I certainly think they should be discussed.

Perhaps I should create another section in the top post for speculation on tape transfers.

My goal ... I hope not too lofty ... is to create a one-stop list that people can bookmark or copy and save.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

AFAIK the FM set contains a stereo mix that does emphasize the piano (unlike the recent cd reissue of 'Let's Be Friends' which uses the Double Features remix where the piano is barely audible). I presumed that this is the original (stereo) mix.
I am removing the corresponding line from the original post. It appears my perceptions or sourcing was hyperattenuated -- or flat wrong -- at the time. Mono vs. stereo is going to lead to some differences in perception, but I intend this post to be factually unassailable. Certainly, at this point, whatever differences there may be, they are far too subtle to be singled out.

This track does, however, belong in the stereo vs. mono section that I promise in the original post. I haven't begun compiling that yet, though I probably will begin to throw some obvious ones in there soon.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvis-fan »

elvissessions wrote: _Tiger Man (March 1970 studio jam)
Is this supposed to be the March 1975 version?


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

Is this supposed to be the March 1975 version?
As someone who has spent decades in editing and publishing work, this is why I'm never too hard on folks about an occasional honest mistake. :)

I don't know how the heck I slipped up on that one, but, yes, of course, it should be March 1975. I'm fixing it now. Good catch!



Matthew

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Matthew »

Firstly I must stress that I am not a professional sound engineer. I would also say that these observations are not based on Franklin Mint sourced recordings but rather, other releases that claim to use the same "2007 restoration project" masters. My testing is purely amateur and is open to rebuttal by those with the knowhow.

It appears a few of the Elvis is Back! and Something For Everybody era tracks (at least) are not new 2007 transfers but rather the same "Digital transfers by Andreas Meyer" credited in the FTD booklets - 2005 and 2006 respectively. Not that this especially matters from a sound perspective but it would suggest the time period mentioned for transferring tapes stretches back further then indicated. Syncing up the intros to the following tracks show no divergences in playback as one would expect with different tape transfers:

Reconsider Baby
Are You Lonesome Tonight?
The Thrill of Your Love
His Latest Flame
Little Sister

Another random track that appear to be from the so-called "DSD" period:

Peace in the Valley - compare 2006's budget "You'll Never Walk Alone" CD, same result.

Mystery Train appears to be the same restored work that appeared on "Elvis at Sun", including the full fade from a lower generation tape mentioned here:
The equally great new Sony transfer of the unprocessed, dynamic Mystery Train makes its debut here on 'Elvis at SUN'. The original, full-ending-to-the last-note version derived from lost Sun Tape Box #1 (that was reported to us by Sven Adamski in 1999) has been recovered from the best available source (tape copy with compression and severe generation loss) and matched with precision during the fade-out, using all the tricks in the book and for once stretching all the 'Elvis at SUN' restoration rules. The result of this impossible task is stunning considering the circumstances.
Sebastian Jeansson - elvisrecordings.com

This would appear to give implication that Kevan Budd's work is certainly still being used - at least at a pre-mastering stage.

Usually one would expect to hear some drift due to the idiosyncrasies of analog playback machines and calibrations. No two digital transfers will be 100% identical.

There are others that I've previously identified (last year) with the same tell-tale signs but I need to revisit them to confirm - one important set of recordings that I won't publish until I've had a chance to re-review.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Sebastian E »

That's interesting. These observations are inconsistent with what Ernst said in Memphis in this regard. If I way quote elvissessions:

Was the Complete Masters really a (audio engineer) Vic Anesini project? Is this just a rehash of old work done by other people?

This question was answered from several different angles, and I even asked again before the group, “Just to reiterate …” There is no doubt, then, about Ernst’s response: The mandate of this project was to go back to the start and rework everything.

I know that there is one reliable source who says and believes otherwise, but Ernst was clear on this point: This is new work by Anesini and Sebastian Jeannson. They went back to the album masters wherever possible and appropriate and ran those tapes fresh again in high resolution to provide the headroom to do the editing and refining they needed to do.

source: http://www.elvisinfonet.com/spotlight_elvis_week_2010_new_release_news.html


Might there be another explanation for the lack of divergences in playback?

Anyway, I don't have an issue with Sony using the same tape transfers that have been used earlier for mastering. But why would Ernst insist that everything has been transferred to digital again if it were not true? What would be the point?
Matthew wrote:This would appear to give implication that Kevan Budd's work is certainly still being used - at least at a pre-mastering stage.
I understand that Kevan Budd is generally not involved in the transferring of tapes (which is done in New York) but rather masters from digital copies provided to him. In that sense his work is not used anymore, is it?



Matthew

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Matthew »

I was sceptical about posting these findings due to the risk of the discussion diverging to one of "but Ernst said!". Please can we keep off that track - at least for now. Clearly there are those in the Elvis world with agendas that seek to discredit the work at any given opportunity. As far as I'm aware two different tape transfers can never been 100% identical. Also note my amateur status - I am open to being proved incorrect.

With regards to Kevan - if I recall correctly, whilst the tape transfers were not done by him, the restoration work done on "Elvis at Sun" is credited to him so the conclusion is that he assembled the composite recording for the full "Mystery Train" playback.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Sebastian E »

Matthew, it wasn't my intention to discredit Ernst or his work. In fact I'm one of his biggest fans. I'm just trying to get an understanding of how The Complete Elvis Preley Masters box set came into existence, that's all.



Matthew

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Matthew »

Sebastian E wrote:Matthew, it wasn't my intention to discredit Ernst or his work. In fact I'm one of his biggest fans. I'm just trying to get an understanding of how The Complete Elvis Preley Masters box set came into existence, that's all.
Not suggesting you were, its all good. Hopefully this thread will continue to open some doors with regards to background info for this landmark project.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by KiwiAlan »

This thread deserves to be a sticky


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

I agree with you, Matthew.

And Sebastian, I understand your point, too, as I also want the best understanding possible of how this project was compiled.

That's why I asked the question so many times and ways in Memphis -- to try to make sure I hit it from all angles.


I think there are a lot of possible explanations, and it's far too early to jump to any conclusions, though some certainly will. There's nothing we can do about that whether we discuss it or not.

First off, it's possible everything WAS transferred again, but when Anesini and Jeannson were working things up, they may have opted for tapes that either were better or they could not improve.

Frankly, when I heard everything was being transferred anew, I was a bit put out. It's an exciting prospect, but at the same time, a lot of great work already had been done by Anesini, Budd and Jeannson that has been subject to public review for quite a while. Why run the risk of new errors if there's no reason?

Bottom line: Everyone buying this set, and everyone buying the material spun off from this set, only wants stuff done to the highest possible standard.

Perceptions of the highest possible standard are going to vary -- sometimes for good or bad reasons.

But if we have several experienced, reliable people running the show, we have good reason to believe that things are going to be done very well.

Human beings are fallible, and now we must begin the process of finding out what can be further improved.
Last edited by elvissessions on Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Sebastian E »

::rocks



Claus

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Claus »

Matthew wrote:Syncing up the intros to the following tracks show no divergences in playback as one would expect with different tape transfers:


His Latest Flame
In y opinion, His latest Flame is so different compared to the SFE ftd that I don't even know if it's the same mix. I was shocked when I heard it on the Elvis 75 box. I prefer the version on the ftd as I think this song is one of the few let-downs on the FM set.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

This indirectly shows why I'm being very conservative in what I include in the original post with regard to mixes.

If there is something that has been completely mixed out or some new element that has been introduced out of nowhere, I want to note that. ... In fact, such things may be among the most important things to keep track of for the future.

However, some of the more subtle decisions are very tricky business.



Matthew

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Matthew »

I'll need to re-check "His Latest Flame". I recall dumping both into the software, syncing up the intros and running them. There's not a great deal that can be done really with regards to remixing this track since they're Bill Porter 3-track safety tapes (only possible source for remixing). Flipping channels, narrowing the stereo image, pushing Elvis' voice up is about all that's possible. However - if the 3-track was digitised raw and then mixed digitally - and then again at some other point they would still both derive from the same original transfer and thus not go out of sync with each other.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

Claus, I hope you don't mind, but I have decided to remove the line-by-line credits and include a more general "thank you" at the bottom.

The reason is that as I read over the list again (and again), I see that there are conclusions about the points you raised that look as if they've been made by you, though they're actually my assesments, which you may not agree with.

I'm not sure you particuarly want to be answerable for the conclusions I've drawn, and you certainly shouldn't have to be.

As the thread following the original post serves as a body of footnotes, I think it will be clear to all which items you provided.

Thank you again for your awesome work!



Matthew

Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by Matthew »

With regards to the clipped intro on "Promised Land" on the Mint set - is it possible its sitting on the tail end of the previous track? ie. if one starts the song, then winds back to the end of the last track, does the intro become complete?


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by elvissessions »

Good question ... I'm away from my home computer now, but I will check it when I get home.


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Re: Complete Masters compared/contrasted with Franklin Mint

Post by mbk1978 »

Sebastian E wrote:I just realized that the US single contained a mono mix. This is therefore the 'original mix'. I guess one has to consider the 'Elvis Country' mix as the 'original stereo mix'. Where did the 'Love, Elvis' mix come from? Was the song issued on a stereo single in Europe?

If this is the case, then it’s a shame that the FM set (and presumably the Sony set) features the 70’s box remix.

I have the original 45 (but not the picture sleeve), and the mono mixes of "I Really Don't Want To Know/There Goes My Everything" on the 45 are much closer to the 70's Box stereo remixes than the original LP stereo mixes. On "I Really Don't Want To Know", the ending doesn't fade out like it does on the 70's Box or the "Welcome To My World" CD; instead it ends with a final drum beat.

The "Love, Elvis" version of "There Goes My Everything" sounds like the LP mix without the linking excerpts of "I Was Born..."