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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri May 03, 2013 11:58 pm

George Smith wrote:Wow ...

That's one helluva first post.

Welcome to the board, rjm.

I've read it through twice and there are still bits I'm struggling with but I'll keep at it ...


LOL! ! I just re-read, and saved my very first post here. It's now a 26-page long S-Note! No white space! Gawd awmighty!

I want to thank everyone for not hunting me down to break my typing fingers.

Anyway, some is embarrassing, some I later backed up with scanned documentation, and significant parts I still stand by. Some things were off the mark.

And this amazing, wonderful thread is still active!

Congrats to the Doc, and to EVERYONE who has thus far contributed to this cultural archeology.

Bravo to you guys. And thanks for your incredible patience.

We will solve this. And learn MUCH along the way. Much more, even.

Thanks again, for this amazing thread.

rjm
(As for the recording; I believe it definitely existed. I also believe it no longer exists.)

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Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Mon May 06, 2013 2:45 am

Thanks, rjm. I hope you are right.

One of my primary goals for this topic is to "smoke out" the acetate or tape that contains the performance of "Tiger Man" Elvis so clearly recalls making in 1954.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Mon May 06, 2013 4:01 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:Thanks, rjm. I hope you are right.

One of my primary goals for this topic is to "smoke out" the acetate or tape that contains the performance of "Tiger Man" Elvis so clearly recalls making in 1954.


Thank you!

A question. I have never held an acetate. Are they very fragile?

rjm

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Re: Elvis Recorded

Mon May 06, 2013 4:32 am

rjm wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:Thanks, rjm. I hope you are right.

One of my primary goals for this topic is to "smoke out" the acetate or tape that contains the performance of "Tiger Man" Elvis so clearly recalls making in 1954.


Thank you!

A question. I have never held an acetate. Are they very fragile?

rjm

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2


I have, and they are just a tad more fragile, but it's the grooves...they were only made for limited amount of playing times.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Mon May 06, 2013 5:18 am

Acetates have an aluminum base. Sometimes the coating slips from the base and renders them unplayable. I have a radio transcription disc of a "My Little Margie" radio show that is unplayable for that very reason. There are lots of things that can happen to them, but I think they are far less fragile than a vinyl record...especially a 78.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu May 09, 2013 9:38 am

RonBaker2003 wrote:Acetates have an aluminum base. Sometimes the coating slips from the base and renders them unplayable. I have a radio transcription disc of a "My Little Margie" radio show that is unplayable for that very reason. There are lots of things that can happen to them, but I think they are far less fragile than a vinyl record...especially a 78.


What are the chances, you think, that a 1954 Sun acetate of "Tiger Man" still exists?

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu May 09, 2013 12:41 pm

The "My Happiness" acetate still exists...so it is possible that "Tiger Man" does also. The trick is finding it! It may be an unlabeled acetate in the thrift stores in Memphis. One never knows.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu May 09, 2013 1:07 pm

RonBaker2003 wrote:The "My Happiness" acetate still exists...


Was My Happines an acetate record? I have understood that you can't play acetate records many times...

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu May 09, 2013 1:33 pm

PetriTCB wrote:
RonBaker2003 wrote:The "My Happiness" acetate still exists...


Was My Happines an acetate record? I have understood that you can't play acetate records many times...

Yes, "My Happiness" was an acetate record that Elvis paid for with his own money and only one copy pressed, which is the one Elvis took away with him the day he recorded it at 706 Union Ave. And yes, they are very fragile pieces, drop it and you will have to say bye-bye to your disc.

Where that disc is now, i have no idea. Don't know if Ed Leek has still got it or he sold it on, which i think was the intention for a bit of cash for his retirement.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu May 09, 2013 6:41 pm

Original Memphis Recording Service acetates still turn up. I bought the MRS acetate from Jimmy Haggett (Sun236) from him years ago, and it was in beautiful shape. He'd held onto it for all those years, so it's possible someone out there has the Tiger Man, but either doesn't realize it or is hoarding it away from all of us.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu May 09, 2013 6:51 pm

Acetates are not pressed but cut in wax.
These discs deteriorate (sp?) each time you play them as the needle damages the groove/wax.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu May 09, 2013 9:17 pm

mysterytrainrideson wrote:Where that disc is now, i have no idea. Don't know if Ed Leek has still got it or he sold it on, which i think was the intention for a bit of cash for his retirement.


Leek was trying to sell that disc and other Elvis-related items to provide something for his family before he passed away. He had licensed the tracks to RCA back in the early 1990s, but who has the actual disc now is unclear. Ed died in June 2010.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Thu May 09, 2013 11:45 pm

drjohncarpenter wrote:
mysterytrainrideson wrote:Where that disc is now, i have no idea. Don't know if Ed Leek has still got it or he sold it on, which i think was the intention for a bit of cash for his retirement.


Leek was trying to sell that disc and other Elvis-related items to provide something for his family before he passed away. He had licensed the tracks to RCA back in the early 1990s, but who has the actual disc now is unclear. Ed died in June 2010.


Elvis put the second record, the known second record, made in early '54, on the jukebox at Charlie's. Clearly, copies can be made. The ONLY place Elvis would know where to do so was the pressing plant where Ed Leek worked.

In Guralnick, we read how Elvis watched copies of his first commercial record roll off the {whatever it's called}. And was VERY excited! So, he frequented the plant, which makes a lot of sense.

As to the odds of a stray acetate recording surviving, it would all depend on who took such a thing into their possession, why they did so, what they chose to do with it, and how it was stored. Or NOT stored.

It is that information that is missing. What if Sam had it in his hands, decided: "junk," and tossed it, Frisbee-style, into File 13? We don't know. One can only hope. One interesting thing I recall through reading about Memphis in those days, is that virtually EVERYTHING either originated with Sam Phillips, or ended up with him. So, no matter WHAT, Sam was the gatekeeper. And so his actions would be paramount, no matter one's theory. Kinda scary, actually.

rjm
Last edited by rjm on Fri May 10, 2013 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri May 10, 2013 12:54 am

rjm wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
mysterytrainrideson wrote:Where that disc is now, i have no idea. Don't know if Ed Leek has still got it or he sold it on, which i think was the intention for a bit of cash for his retirement.


Leek was trying to sell that disc and other Elvis-related items to provide something for his family before he passed away. He had licensed the tracks to RCA back in the early 1990s, but who has the actual disc now is unclear. Ed died in June 2010.


Elvis put the second record, the known second record, made in early '54, on the jukebox at Charlie's. Clearly, copies can be made. The ONLY place Elvis would known where to do so was the pressing plant where Ed Leek worked.
In Guralnick, we read how Elvis watched copies of his first commercial record roll off the {whatever it's called}. And was VERY excited! So, he frequented the plant, which makes a lot of sense.

As to the odds of a stray acetate recording surviving, it would all depend on who took such a thing into their possession, why they did so, what they chose to do with it, and how it was stored. Or NOT stored.

It is that information that is missing. What if Sam had it in his hands, decided: "junk," and tossed it, Frisbee-style, into File 13? We don't know. One can only hope. One interesting thing I recall through reading about Memphis in those days, is that virtually EVERYTHING either originated with Sam Phillips, or ended up with him. So, no matter WHAT, Sam was the gatekeeper. And so his actions would be paramount, no matter one's theory. Kinda scary, actually.

rjm


Why could he not just go back to sun where the original acetate was cut ? You don't press an acetate it is cut into a lacquer covered disc by a recording lathe which they obviously had at sun studios in order to make the disc in the first place.


Alan.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri May 10, 2013 1:48 am

rjm wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
mysterytrainrideson wrote:Where that disc is now, i have no idea. Don't know if Ed Leek has still got it or he sold it on, which i think was the intention for a bit of cash for his retirement.


Leek was trying to sell that disc and other Elvis-related items to provide something for his family before he passed away. He had licensed the tracks to RCA back in the early 1990s, but who has the actual disc now is unclear. Ed died in June 2010.


Elvis put the second record, the known second record, made in early '54, on the jukebox at Charlie's. Clearly, copies can be made. The ONLY place Elvis would known where to do so was the pressing plant where Ed Leek worked.

In Guralnick, we read how Elvis watched copies of his first commercial record roll off the {whatever it's called}. And was VERY excited! So, he frequented the plant, which makes a lot of sense.

As to the odds of a stray acetate recording surviving, it would all depend on who took such a thing into their possession, why they did so, what they chose to do with it, and how it was stored. Or NOT stored.

It is that information that is missing. What if Sam had it in his hands, decided: "junk," and tossed it, Frisbee-style, into File 13? We don't know. One can only hope. One interesting thing I recall through reading about Memphis in those days, is that virtually EVERYTHING either originated with Sam Phillips, or ended up with him. So, no matter WHAT, Sam was the gatekeeper. And so his actions would be paramount, no matter one's theory. Kinda scary, actually.


There were no dedicated copies made of the Presley demos made at 706 Union Street. And by all known accounts, the disc Elvis put on at The Blues Shop (AKA "Charlie's") at 286 North Main Street was the first one, cut in July 1953, "My Happiness." From there he took it to Ed Leek's home, as the Leek family had a record player. And eventually forgot about it.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri May 10, 2013 2:11 am

Whoa, the record-player thing.

I'm not going there. ;) (p. 76, Guralnick, vol.1. Last paragraph. After he met Dixie.)

rjm (I thought it was the second, due to who remembered it at the time, but must have been the first.)

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri May 10, 2013 2:36 am

drjohncarpenter wrote:
rjm wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
mysterytrainrideson wrote:Where that disc is now, i have no idea. Don't know if Ed Leek has still got it or he sold it on, which i think was the intention for a bit of cash for his retirement.


Leek was trying to sell that disc and other Elvis-related items to provide something for his family before he passed away. He had licensed the tracks to RCA back in the early 1990s, but who has the actual disc now is unclear. Ed died in June 2010.


Elvis put the second record, the known second record, made in early '54, on the jukebox at Charlie's. Clearly, copies can be made. The ONLY place Elvis would known where to do so was the pressing plant where Ed Leek worked.

In Guralnick, we read how Elvis watched copies of his first commercial record roll off the {whatever it's called}. And was VERY excited! So, he frequented the plant, which makes a lot of sense.

As to the odds of a stray acetate recording surviving, it would all depend on who took such a thing into their possession, why they did so, what they chose to do with it, and how it was stored. Or NOT stored.

It is that information that is missing. What if Sam had it in his hands, decided: "junk," and tossed it, Frisbee-style, into File 13? We don't know. One can only hope. One interesting thing I recall through reading about Memphis in those days, is that virtually EVERYTHING either originated with Sam Phillips, or ended up with him. So, no matter WHAT, Sam was the gatekeeper. And so his actions would be paramount, no matter one's theory. Kinda scary, actually.


There were no dedicated copies made of the Presley demos made at 706 Union Street. And by all known accounts, the disc Elvis put on at The Blues Shop (AKA "Charlie's") at 286 North Main Street was the first one, cut in July 1953, "My Happiness." From there he took it to Ed Leek's home, as the Leek family had a record player. And eventually forgot about it.


He didn't forget about it..... any more than he "forgot" about "tiger man".

Read between the lines if you will.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri May 10, 2013 2:40 am

Regarding the fragility of acetates we can see how bad a state they can get into with "A Boy From Tupelo" tracks that were taken from a damaged acetate source that disintergtrated in the process of transfering to tape.What an amazing job the team did on that one so there is always hope that other miracles can happen including Tiger Man.

norrie

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri May 10, 2013 2:44 am

ekenee wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
rjm wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
mysterytrainrideson wrote:Where that disc is now, i have no idea. Don't know if Ed Leek has still got it or he sold it on, which i think was the intention for a bit of cash for his retirement.


Leek was trying to sell that disc and other Elvis-related items to provide something for his family before he passed away. He had licensed the tracks to RCA back in the early 1990s, but who has the actual disc now is unclear. Ed died in June 2010.


Elvis put the second record, the known second record, made in early '54, on the jukebox at Charlie's. Clearly, copies can be made. The ONLY place Elvis would known where to do so was the pressing plant where Ed Leek worked.

In Guralnick, we read how Elvis watched copies of his first commercial record roll off the {whatever it's called}. And was VERY excited! So, he frequented the plant, which makes a lot of sense.

As to the odds of a stray acetate recording surviving, it would all depend on who took such a thing into their possession, why they did so, what they chose to do with it, and how it was stored. Or NOT stored.

It is that information that is missing. What if Sam had it in his hands, decided: "junk," and tossed it, Frisbee-style, into File 13? We don't know. One can only hope. One interesting thing I recall through reading about Memphis in those days, is that virtually EVERYTHING either originated with Sam Phillips, or ended up with him. So, no matter WHAT, Sam was the gatekeeper. And so his actions would be paramount, no matter one's theory. Kinda scary, actually.


There were no dedicated copies made of the Presley demos made at 706 Union Street. And by all known accounts, the disc Elvis put on at The Blues Shop (AKA "Charlie's") at 286 North Main Street was the first one, cut in July 1953, "My Happiness." From there he took it to Ed Leek's home, as the Leek family had a record player. And eventually forgot about it.


He didn't forget about it..... any more than he "forgot" about "tiger man".

Read between the lines if you will.



Since Elvis didn't really make the record "for his mother," or even for himself, I am sure he didn't really care about the actual PHYSICAL RECORD. He was trying to be heard. So, yeah, the object went on the mental back burner. It had no real purpose as an object, to begin with.

rjm

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri May 10, 2013 5:46 am

rjm wrote:
ekenee wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
rjm wrote:
drjohncarpenter wrote:
mysterytrainrideson wrote:Where that disc is now, i have no idea. Don't know if Ed Leek has still got it or he sold it on, which i think was the intention for a bit of cash for his retirement.


Leek was trying to sell that disc and other Elvis-related items to provide something for his family before he passed away. He had licensed the tracks to RCA back in the early 1990s, but who has the actual disc now is unclear. Ed died in June 2010.


Elvis put the second record, the known second record, made in early '54, on the jukebox at Charlie's. Clearly, copies can be made. The ONLY place Elvis would known where to do so was the pressing plant where Ed Leek worked.

In Guralnick, we read how Elvis watched copies of his first commercial record roll off the {whatever it's called}. And was VERY excited! So, he frequented the plant, which makes a lot of sense.

As to the odds of a stray acetate recording surviving, it would all depend on who took such a thing into their possession, why they did so, what they chose to do with it, and how it was stored. Or NOT stored.

It is that information that is missing. What if Sam had it in his hands, decided: "junk," and tossed it, Frisbee-style, into File 13? We don't know. One can only hope. One interesting thing I recall through reading about Memphis in those days, is that virtually EVERYTHING either originated with Sam Phillips, or ended up with him. So, no matter WHAT, Sam was the gatekeeper. And so his actions would be paramount, no matter one's theory. Kinda scary, actually.


There were no dedicated copies made of the Presley demos made at 706 Union Street. And by all known accounts, the disc Elvis put on at The Blues Shop (AKA "Charlie's") at 286 North Main Street was the first one, cut in July 1953, "My Happiness." From there he took it to Ed Leek's home, as the Leek family had a record player. And eventually forgot about it.


He didn't forget about it..... any more than he "forgot" about "tiger man".

Read between the lines if you will.



Since Elvis didn't really make the record "for his mother," or even for himself, I am sure he didn't really care about the actual PHYSICAL RECORD. He was trying to be heard. So, yeah, the object went on the mental back burner. It had no real purpose as an object, to begin with.

rjm


Agreed, but forgetting, and not caring, are two different issues.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Fri May 10, 2013 11:30 am

Ed leek also says that the Presleys didn't own a record player, thats why Elvis came round with the disc so they could hear it and left the disc with Ed.

Now, i find it hard to believe that Elvis didn't have a record player...especially, when he moved Memphis - "the big city" and graduated from school and started doing jobs, earning money. The first thing you would have thought he wanted was a record player. For someone who was obsessed with music seems logical. Besides, didn't he leave a collection of 78's (that he bought at the time they came out) with Scotty Moore, for Scotty to put on tape for him, which Scotty did for a fee. Scotty held on to Elvis' collection of 78's, left up in his attic for years, until he pulled them all out years later. EMM did an excellent article about them, revealing what Elvis had in his collection, orignal versions of things like Arthur Gunters "Baby Lets Playhouse" etc.....coooool man!!

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat May 11, 2013 1:31 am

mysterytrainrideson wrote:Besides, didn't he leave a collection of 78's (that he bought at the time they came out) with Scotty Moore ...


Those could have been purchased after he started making good money, in 1955.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat May 11, 2013 12:24 pm

Coming back to the subject , He must have recorded it, to outspoken about it during the shows.
Just a matter of time before it surfaces.

Sadly various collectors have recordings which they keep to them selves....
I don't really care about 50 takes of the same song but the first recordings are something else, yup I like Tigerman !

Dr , great subject !!!!

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sat May 11, 2013 9:40 pm

Armageddon wrote:Coming back to the subject , He must have recorded it, to outspoken about it during the shows.
Just a matter of time before it surfaces.

Sadly various collectors have recordings which they keep to them selves....
I don't really care about 50 takes of the same song but the first recordings are something else, yup I like Tigerman !

Dr , great subject !!!!


Boy, I hope you are right.

Re: Elvis Recorded "Tiger Man" At Sun --> Mystery Solved ?

Sun May 12, 2013 9:35 am

Elvis' recordings at Sun is still a mystery.
Titles mentioned never showed up, titles we never heard about before suddenly saw the light of day.
Then we had acetates recorded at a radio station of which nobody knew about and a demo recording of a different song Roustabout which was recorded but not issued and ended up in the songwriter's attick.