Elvis' Christmas Album --> Mystery No More?

I know I am new to this discussion, but it has been a topic of interest for me for quite some time.

First, I would like to thank the person whom started this thread. Great pics and analysis.

I also, see that there is good use of the Google books for the images from Billboard. I too have gone that route. I had recently discovered http://www.newspaperarchive.com.

Although, Billboard is a leading magazine for the record industry, I do not believe that it is completely accurate with the details for each record. In 1968, LPM-1951 is listed with LSP-1951, well unlikely since somewhere around 11/1968, when the record label went orange, that catalog would have been dropped. Same too with no mention of LOC-1035 for some years, then in others it is brought back.

Well anyway, I have made some revisions to my post LPM-1951 to correct the date to what I believe to be 11/1959.
http://www.elvisrecords.us/lpm-1951-elv ... mas-album/

I have a December 1959, Schwann Catalog that I didn't think to reference the Christmas section as LPM-1951 was not listed in the regular POP releases. It is listed in the Christmas section. Thank you, this forum for the inspiration to look at the catalog again.

I also had found several newspaper listings from 1958 and 1959 that advertise Elvis' Christmas Album. I have pictures of those pages and closeups as well as the Newspaper names.

I have images of these scans for both LOC-1035 and LPM-1951 here: http://www.elvisrecords.us/lpm-1951-elv ... mas-album/

Thank you for your time and I hope that I had contributed something to this discussion. Have a great day.

Disclaimer: I am NOT an expert on the Elvis Presley US Catalog, however, I am a extremely knowledgeable and an avid collector. My information on my site is only as accurate as what I can find in my research. I don't pretend that everything I have documented is 100% accurate or complete, but am willing to get it to as close as possible. The goal of my site is to serve as a reference for all collectors, to fill the void of the all text price guides, and is organized slightly different. Where price guides generally associate a specific cover with a specific label with a specific inner sleeve, this site generalizes this considerably as having been buying records, there are many variations that are not documented using that method. Sometimes, it is nice to see the image of that record you may have or are looking for.

Last edited by elvisrecords.us on Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

elvisrecords.us, welcome to FECC. I have sent you a PM regarding your concerns.

To your post:

I have a December 1959, Schwann Catalog that I didn't think to reference the Christmas section as LPM-1951 was not listed in the regular POP releases. It is listed in the Christmas section
...
I also had found several newspaper listings from 1958 and 1959 that advertise Elvis' Christmas Album. I have pictures of those pages and closeups as well as the Newspaper names.

If you can scan the relevant page/s in the 1959 Schwann Catalog, that would be great.

It would be nice to confirm that both EPE 4340 and LPM 1951 were issued at Christmas 1959.

Any concrete information you can scan about LOC 1035's longevity at retail, such as those newspaper articles, will also be welcome.

My understanding is that not only the back cover photo of Elvis in his uniform, but the front cover photo on LPM 1951 (and EPA 4340) were from the same 1959 Teldec photo session. In other words, the original photo had Elvis standing in front of blue curtains, but was subsequently superimposed on the snow covered hills for the covers of both LPM 1951 and EPA 4340.

If so, neither LPM 1951 nor EPA 4340 could have been released in 1958.

MT

My understanding is that not only the back cover photo of Elvis in his uniform, but the front cover photo on LPM 1951 (and EPA 4340) were from the same 1959 Teldec photo session. In other words, the original photo had Elvis standing in front of blue curtains, but was subsequently superimposed on the snow covered hills for the covers of both LPM 1951 and EPA 4340.

If so, neither LPM 1951 nor EPA 4340 could have been released in 1958.

MT

Exactly right!

Having looked at this subject over the seven pages available again,I have to agree with the Doc.How can LPM-1951 have been released in 1958, when the front cover photo was taken by the Teldec company in May 1959?.
I still stick by what I said on page 2 of this topic,that it first appeared in November 1959.



Glad to see Mystery Train agrees with my above comments.

We may have confirmation soon!

I say again LPM 1951 could have been issued in 1958 with the original cover.

The Billboard experts Joel Whitburn states 1958

I say again LPM 1951 could have been issued in 1958 with the original cover.

The Billboard experts Joel Whitburn states 1958

If so, then one would have turned up in collectors circles.

Although I have scans on my site, here is the scan of the December 1959 issue of Schwann Long Playing Records Catalog, page 176. LPM-1951 is offered with no mention of LOC-1035.

1959-12-p176-lpm-1951-marked-1.jpg

Also under the Popular section the discography only lists regular release LPs. In the following order and detail.

1959-12-schwann-214.jpg

Also, a scan of RCA Victor Catalog - Records and Tapes (Current Until August 1958)
To demonstrate that there are no Christmas listings for that period, not even in the Christmas section of this book.

rcavictor.jpg

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Very good.

Can we all now agree on 1959

That would seem to settle it then.
A question unanswered though-how long was LOC-1035 available to the public?
Furthermore,it would be hoped,even without alternate takes,FTD would release this(perhaps they could find relevant material to fill the gaps?)

Although I have scans on my site, here is the scan of the December 1959 issue of Schwann Long Playing Records Catalog, page 176. LPM-1951 is offered with no mention of LOC-1035.

1959-12-p176-lpm-1951-marked-1.jpg

Also under the Popular section the discography only lists regular release LPs. In the following order and detail.

1959-12-schwann-214.jpg

Also, a scan of RCA Victor Catalog - Records and Tapes (Current Until August 1958)
To demonstrate that there are no Christmas listings for that period, not even in the Christmas section of this book.

rcavictor.jpg

Thank you so much!

1958 may be eliminated beyond any doubt, and it appears 1959 is the debut year of LPM 1951.

This has been a heck of a topic!

A question unanswered though-how long was LOC-1035 available to the public?

This would be nice to confirm -- right now, it seems up to Dec 1963 is possible.

A question unanswered though-how long was LOC-1035 available to the public?

This would be nice to confirm -- right now, it seems up to Dec 1963 is possible.

This would be tough issue to prove.
Since Christmas music is seasonal, it gets returned after the holidays and is warehoused.
It gets sent back to the retailers every october or so.
All you have to do is look at today's CD market and there are Christmas CD's long out of print
still making it to the stores because they still have them. Unsold stragglers could stay in the system for a long time.
We are not talking about nationwide,but certain minor markets could still have been getting that LP, for any number of years afterward. AT first I was hestitant to say 1967, and the arguement that would make the Christmas LP not as rare as originally as thought, but if you think of the comparative number available instores, is it not inconcievable that maybe a few hundreds copies were still floating around, sealed-new, during the 1967 holiday season. Or it got even be only Dozens floating around.
Those low numbers would still make the LP a desirable collectible.
I remember once, at a small record store in 1977 I picked up a new "love letters" album, that was the original label and pressing from 1971. The label had by then changed colors . That was definetely a straggler that hadn't sold.

Last edited by ekenee on Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Does anyone have a copy of LOC-1035 with monaural or mono at the bottom instead of long play?

Billboard April 6, 1959

Here’s the complete listing of all Elvis’ recordings on RCA - NO RCA Victor LPM-1951 !!!

http://books.google.pt/books?hl=de&id=T ... gs&f=false

JERRY OSBORNE: “The promotional LP RCA SP-33-66 “Christmas Programming From RCA Victor” was released November 1959. On the back cover you’ll find pictures of 12 RCA Christmas albums, including ELVIS’ CHRISTMAS ALBUM (LPM-1951).”

For that reason I think, the LPM-1951 was released November or December 1959.


Mississippi

Billboard April 6, 1959

Here’s the complete listing of all Elvis’ recordings on RCA - NO RCA Victor LPM-1951 !!!

Great find. Here's the page:

Billboard Apr 04 1959 p28.JPG

Billboard - April 4, 1959
Again, more proof -- as if needed now -- that neither EPE 4340 nor LPM 1951 were issued in 1958.
It ALSO proves that LOC 1035 was indeed IN PRINT and FOR SALE in 1958 and 1959!

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Last edited by drjohncarpenter on Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

For me the mystery is not solved completely because no-one was able to tell so far if this means that sales figures of LOC 1035 were far higher than assumed. Has LOC 1035 been in print LOC 1035 in print al the way up to 1967? Or did RCA Victor just get rid of old stock? Did anyone find a LOC 1035 with a MONAURAL label? Does values in Collectors Guides have to be adjusted because of the fact that the record was longer in production than assumed?

Would be happy to read some views on those questions!

For the moment, if I understand this correctly, LOC-1035 is assumed to be available through 1967, solely on Billboard charts. I just acquired more Shwann Long Playing catalogs. Of particular interest the Nov 1958 lists LOC-1035 only. As I indicated earlier, Dec 1959 lists LPM-1951 only. Billboard may have reported the charts artist and song titles or album titles rather accurately, but the little details, not so. Searching through Google books for other Elvis albums revealed many more problems. Take for instance, Elvis' Christmas Album, CAL-2428 (released in 1970 and listed in Billboard on Oct 3, 1970, p53). It is listed as CAS-2428. No mention of CAL-2428. CAS-2428 didn't exist until 1975.

My theory and belief is the following:
LOC-1035 available for the 1957 and 1958 Christmas seasons.
LPM-1951 was introduced in 1959 to replace LOC-1035. Any LOC-1035 stock that may have remained from the prior two Christmas seasons was likely sold off in 1959 (and would not have charted).

I have more Schwann Long Play guides from the 1960's, I haven't gone through them yet. I will, if I find anything of interest on this subject I will post.

elvisrecords.us

Forgive me for my curiousity.

Are you a friend of Dr John Carpenter, if not him in disguise?


The reason I wonder is that the week before you joined the Doc was hinting at new information to prove his case was coming soon.

You turn up out of the blue with extensive research on the subject having never posted before.


What put you onto this board and subject?

For the moment, if I understand this correctly, LOC-1035 is assumed to be available through 1967, solely on Billboard charts. I just acquired more Shwann Long Playing catalogs. Of particular interest the Nov 1958 lists LOC-1035 only. As I indicated earlier, Dec 1959 lists LPM-1951 only. Billboard may have reported the charts artist and song titles or album titles rather accurately, but the little details, not so. Searching through Google books for other Elvis albums revealed many more problems. Take for instance, Elvis' Christmas Album, CAL-2428 (released in 1970 and listed in Billboard on Oct 3, 1970, p53). It is listed as CAS-2428. No mention of CAL-2428. CAS-2428 didn't exist until 1975.

My theory and belief is the following:
LOC-1035 available for the 1957 and 1958 Christmas seasons.
LPM-1951 was introduced in 1959 to replace LOC-1035. Any LOC-1035 stock that may have remained from the prior two Christmas seasons was likely sold off in 1959 (and would not have charted).

I have more Schwann Long Play guides from the 1960's, I haven't gone through them yet. I will, if I find anything of interest on this subject I will post.

I want to address your theory of LOC 1035 only being available for 3 years.
There are so many examples of new/old stock of LP's being found on retail shelves long longer than 3 years after deletion.
And this being a seasonal item, was not allowed to sell during the Jan. to October time frame as it was warehoused.
So, there was only a 2 month window for sales. I am pretty confident that it was probably found in pocket markets in small quanitities up thru at least 1963 or so.

elvisrecords.us
Forgive me for my curiosity.
Are you a friend of Dr John Carpenter, if not him in disguise?
The reason I wonder is that the week before you joined the Doc was hinting at new information to prove his case was coming soon.
You turn up out of the blue with extensive research on the subject having never posted before.
What put you onto this board and subject?

I joined this discussion in an attempt to find a truth or common conscience based on material that was available for that period. It seems that today's discographies in general tend to site each other as references, eventually compounding on mistakes that were made by previous authors or researchers.

As for the comment about Dr John Carpenter, I am not him. However, after having read through this discussion, he has certainly introduced a lot of period material that I have found useful in drawing my own conclusions.

Incidentally, I have reviewed Dec 1961, Schwanns to see LPM-1951 is listed and no mention of LOC-1035. Also reviewed, Dec 1967, Schwanns to see LSP/LPM-1951 listed, no mention of LOC-1035.

Last edited by elvisrecords.us on Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I want to address your theory of LOC 1035 only being available for 3 years.
There are so many examples of new/old stock of LP's being found on retail shelves long longer than 3 years after deletion.
And this being a seasonal item, was not allowed to sell during the Jan. to October time frame as it was warehoused.
So, there was only a 2 month window for sales. I am pretty confident that it was probably found in pocket markets in small quantities up thru at least 1963 or so.

I can agree with that conlusion, old store stock, technically still exists today. On the collectors market as sealed examples still exist, and not only for that release. The point that I believe some have tried to make was RCA still pressing copies after December 1958. I don't believe so.

elvisrecords.us
Forgive me for my curiosity.
Are you a friend of Dr John Carpenter, if not him in disguise?
The reason I wonder is that the week before you joined the Doc was hinting at new information to prove his case was coming soon.
You turn up out of the blue with extensive research on the subject having never posted before.
What put you onto this board and subject?

I joined this discussion in an attempt to find a truth or common conscience based on material that was available for that period. It seems that today's discographies in general tend to site each other as references, eventually compounding on mistakes that were made by previous authors or researchers.

As for the comment about Dr John Carpenter, I am not him. However, after having read through this discussion, he has certainly introduced a lot of period material that I have found useful in drawing my own conclusions.

Incidentally, I have reviewed Dec 1961, Schwanns to see LPM-1951 is listed and no mention of LOC-1035. Also reviewed, Dec 1967, Schwanns to see LSP/LPM-1951 listed, no mention of LOC-1035.

Thanks for your work.

I want to address your theory of LOC 1035 only being available for 3 years.
There are so many examples of new/old stock of LP's being found on retail shelves long longer than 3 years after deletion.
And this being a seasonal item, was not allowed to sell during the Jan. to October time frame as it was warehoused.
So, there was only a 2 month window for sales. I am pretty confident that it was probably found in pocket markets in small quantities up thru at least 1963 or so.

I can agree with that conlusion, old store stock, technically still exists today. On the collectors market as sealed examples still exist, and not only for that release. The point that I believe some have tried to make was RCA still pressing copies after December 1958. I don't believe so.

I agree with you there. I don't believe they kept on pressing new copies either.

But I do believe that back in the early to mid 60's I would suppose one could fnd both versions still on the shelves at Christmas time.