Elvis and Vietnam war

[Scarre]

(And don't bother bringing up If I Can Dream here either - that was a plea for peace, not a statement against his government's involvement in any particular "police action").

So, EP orders a new message song that is important to him...A song about peace...And at the same time don´t care about the government´s actions?
Hardly...Read between the lines...

[drjohncarpenter]

So, EP orders a new message song that is important to him...A song about peace...And at the same time don´t care about the government´s actions?
Hardly...Read between the lines...

Scarre, "If I Can Dream" was just a pop song about people, and the weather - and that's all.

[Scott]

So, EP orders a new message song that is important to him...A song about peace...And at the same time don´t care about the government´s actions?

You're like The Carp. You don't read posts properly before you respond, and you put words into people's mouths (keyboards) that simply aren't there.

Did I say Elvis didn't care about his government's actions? No.

If I Can Dream was a general plea for peace. It was not an anti-Vietnam statement, not in any way, shape or form. There were people who believed that "fighting for peace" was a worthy cause in Vietnam, you know. Perhaps Elvis was one of them?

[epf]

Why the hell would he sing of Yokohama? Vietnam was a contemporary reference, a concept seemingly beyond your conprehension.

Actually, there are no concepts beyond my conprehension, scott.

However, you are getting closer to the truth.

Keep dreaming, scott. Dreaming is free.

Doc, don't you mean comprehension?

[ColinB]

Why the hell would he sing of Yokohama? Vietnam was a contemporary reference, a concept seemingly beyond your conprehension.

Actually, there are no concepts beyond my conprehension, scott.

However, you are getting closer to the truth.

Keep dreaming, scott. Dreaming is free.

Doc, don't you mean comprehension?

Oh, he was just pointing out Scott's typo..............

[Spellbinder]

Why the hell would he sing of Yokohama? Vietnam was a contemporary reference, a concept seemingly beyond your conprehension.

Actually, there are no concepts beyond my conprehension, scott.

However, you are getting closer to the truth.

Keep dreaming, scott. Dreaming is free.

Doc, don't you mean comprehension?

Oh, he was just pointing out Scott's typo..............

...... so far the strongest point in his argument.

[drjohncarpenter]

...... so far the strongest point in his argument.

And, as per usual, you have nothing to say on the topic being discussed.

[Spellbinder]

...... so far the strongest point in his argument.

And, as per usual, you have nothing to say on the topic being discussed.

Except to point out how weak your argument is.

[Scarre]

So, EP orders a new message song that is important to him...A song about peace...And at the same time don´t care about the government´s actions?

You're like The Carp. You don't read posts properly before you respond, and you put words into people's mouths (keyboards) that simply aren't there.

Did I say Elvis didn't care about his government's actions? No.

If I Can Dream was a general plea for peace. It was not an anti-Vietnam statement, not in any way, shape or form. There were people who believed that "fighting for peace" was a worthy cause in Vietnam, you know. Perhaps Elvis was one of them?

Did I say you said "Elvis didn´t care about his government´s actions"? No.

My point was...If one orders a song about peace, and sings about peace, you can assume that he is at least not supporting war.

But, OK, you might have a small point with "fighting for peace". But IMO, not in this case.

BTW, congrats. You have been on the board for one year today.

[Scott]

Did I say you said "Elvis didn´t care about his government´s actions"?

Yes, you implied it:

"A song about peace...And at the same time don´t care about the government´s actions? "

BTW, congrats. You have been on the board for one year today.

Oh, thanks. I didn't notice.

[tcb4]

Thats my point on the Memphis Mafia guys,they will tell you everything about Elvis drug habit and girls and anything that lets you know how bad they had it, yet anything that is really interesting such as Elvis view on the war and other issues they dont say a word,just the same old rehashed stories!

+1
( For scott ; you asked me what i meant )

[RKSNASHVILLE]

As for "If I Can Dream" - this was NOT an anti-Vietmam statement protest song - it was a song dreaming of a day when everyone would walk "hand in hand" - that there wouldn't be murder and violence and hate and yes war too.

You have to remember there we're other events that took place in 1968 that we're in the forefront of people's minds -not just the war.

In April, Martin Luther King had been assasinated in Memphis.

In June, just a few weeks before the recording of If I Can Dream, Robert Kennedy was assasinated."

All of the events of '68 "inspired" the writing (and singing) of If I Can Dream.


RKS

[Scott]

As for "If I Can Dream" - this was NOT an anti-Vietmam statement protest song - it was a song dreaming of a day when everyone would walk "hand in hand" - that there wouldn't be murder and violence and hate and yes war too.

You have to remember there we're other events that took place in 1968 that we're in the forefront of people's minds -not just the war.

In April, Martin Luther King had been assasinated in Memphis.

In June, just a few weeks before the recording of If I Can Dream, Robert Kennedy was assasinated."

All of the events of '68 "inspired" the writing (and singing) of If I Can Dream.


RKS

BINGO!

[Scarre]

In April, Martin Luther King had been assasinated in Memphis.

In June, just a few weeks before the recording of If I Can Dream, Robert Kennedy was assasinated."

All of the events of '68 "inspired" the writing (and singing) of If I Can Dream.


RKS

It would be nice to know the date EP asked Brown for the song. Must have been before King&Kennedy.

[Scott]

It would be nice to know the date EP asked Brown for the song. Must have been before King&Kennedy.

Doubtful.

King was killed on April 4; Kennedy on June 6, 1968.

The song as commissioned closer to the taping date than that.

"The song was written at the last minute at the request of the show's producer, Steve Binder. The musical director for Elvis, W. Earl Brown, wrote the song as a response to the assassinations of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King. It was intended as a statement of hope for the future of America. Elvis loved "If I Can Dream," and he gave it everything he had."

http://people.howstuffworks.com/elvis-presley-songs11.htm

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=9125

There may also be a mention of it in the new 68 at 40 book.

[tcb4]

let s not forget there were also riots in the USA

[Christopher]

of course this was a weak argument by the doc, in my opinion.
but he is right, when he says, he brings a lot of facts to this very forum.
but, as so often before, this has become a case of pure bossiness.
im my eyes, we still have no clue of elvis´ opinion about the war in vietnam. it is very likely, that the text change was just a contemporary "update", without ulterior motives, as scott pointed out already.
but why, oh why is there no agreement to differ between scott and the doc? carpenter has his view and the other one construes the fact (of the lyric change) his way. every human being has it´s own lowdown, based on and colored by his experience, his values and general view of the world.

But back to the topic at hand - anyone else feel free to jump in here of course - tcb4's comment that "it s weird that the memphis mafia guys have so much to say about the little things but when it comes to the first important thing for the american people in the 70's, they say nothing?" ... what do you mean here?

i mean, it may not have been that important for them to discuss these (kind of) topics. it was about music, tours, banging chicks, fun & laughter and cars ...
the subtext of his assertion "i´d like to keep my personal view about that to myself" was: i can´t change it anyway.
so why bother?

[drjohncarpenter]

As for "If I Can Dream" - this was NOT an anti-Vietmam statement protest song ...

No one has said anything to the contrary. Read more carefully, and attempt some inference.

All of the events of '68 "inspired" the writing (and singing) of If I Can Dream.

Since "If I Can Dream" was composed and recorded in June 1968 this is impossible.

You are correct, though, that there was a context to the song.

However, to try and imagine that the biggest, most divisive, daily story that was the conflict in Vietnam had no impact on the writing or performance of W. Earl Brown's song is not credible. Read on and learn more!

It would be nice to know the date EP asked Brown for the song. Must have been before King&Kennedy.

Elvis never asked for the song -- producer/director Steve Binder did so shortly after Bobby Kennedy's death on June 6, 1968.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. had been killed almost exactly 8 weeks earlier. The Tet Offensive in southeast Asia had begun in late January, and the recent May Day riots in Paris had been front page news.

This was the atmosphere in which "If I Can Dream" was created. But, hey, it was just a pop song about universal brotherhood. Not.

We've gone off on a tangent, but so far only one person has answered the topic query. There is significance in Elvis changing a key word in Chuck Berry's "Too Much Monkey Business," although it is open to debate as to exactly what Elvis intended.

We do -- however -- have a clue of Elvis' mindset in 1968 with "If I Can Dream." It was not a generic, "feel good" number for pop radio -- and this is because Elvis' passion made it so!

People, put away your personal biases for 5 minutes and think a little.

[Scott]

of course this was a weak argument by the doc, in my opinion.

And those last three words are a sentence The Carp canot grasp in any way. His opinion is always right, or so he thinks.

(And don't bother taking "His opinion is always right" as a quote and saying "Thanks, I do what I can. Trust the doc", Carp.)

but he is right, when he says, he brings a lot of facts to this very forum.

Yeah, like "That is not Nelson Riddle" for instance, when Riddle's family said it was. Still laughing about that one. And no response from The Carp on that one either.

Contrary to popular (mainly his own) belief, The Carp is not always right. No one can be.

but, as so often before, this has become a case of pure bossiness.

On his part, yes.

[Scott]

"If I Can Dream" ...was just a pop song about universal brotherhood.

Correct; and it was written in response to the lack of "peace and understanding" in the world.

Well spotted.

[monkboughtlunch]

While some may dismiss Elvis's Vietnam ad lib in "Too Much Monkey Business," it's appears to be in lock step with his 1969 Vegas "life story" monologues in which he speaks of being "drafted and shafted" in the late 50s. This suggests a certain disdain for conscription.

I think due to his personal experience of being drafted (and separated from his mother and musical career),both of Elvis' comments above show he identified at the very least with the plight of kids being drafted and forced to fight in Vietnam.

I think Elvis' political ideology is somewhat complex and hard to boil down. He was liberal and open minded in some ways (his musical tastes and love of African American music); yet his reaching out to Republican Nixon and his fascination with the FBI and law enforcement reflects a conservative side as well.

Regardless of whether he agreed with the policy to fight in Vietnam, he most likely identified with the troops being killed, maimed and wounded. I read somewhere that 16,000 U.S. troops were killed in Vietnam in 1968 alone. One would think Elvis probably had some strong personal feelings about that.

[Scott]

While some may dismiss Elvis's Vietnam ad lib in "Too Much Monkey Business,"

Don't think it was an ad lib, somehow.

I think due to his personal experience of being drafted (and separated from his mother and musical career),both of Elvis' comments above show he identified at the very least with the plight of kids being drafted and forced to fight in Vietnam.

Or ... maybe he just liked the song.

[monkboughtlunch]

While some may dismiss Elvis's Vietnam ad lib in "Too Much Monkey Business,"

Don't think it was an ad lib, somehow.

I think due to his personal experience of being drafted (and separated from his mother and musical career),both of Elvis' comments above show he identified at the very least with the plight of kids being drafted and forced to fight in Vietnam.

Or ... maybe he just liked the song.

Not sure what point you are making. The question was what was Elvis' position on the Vietnam war. We have some anecdotal evidence that suggests he may have viewed the U.S. military policy with--to some degree--suspicion or disdain.

- Yes, his decision to use "Vietnam" in place of a Korean reference in Too Much Monkey Business could be seen as merely attempt to update Berry's 1950s lyrics and make it contemporary for the late 60s. But I think we should also recognize that Elvis made a decision to take some commercial risk in offering any kind of public critique of Vietnam during an "in progress" military conflict.

- He also told Vegas audiences in 1969 that he was "drafted and shafted" in reference to his late 50s conscription. This is evidence that he harbored some bitterness about the military pulling the rug out from under his career, being shipped off to Germany and living away from his mother in her final months.

All I'm saying is that his feelings towards Uncle Sam and politically driven military policies may have been more skeptical and complex than his badge collecting fetish and admiration of the FBI/police would suggest. Surely he identified with the troops and we know he respected service given his assistance to the Arizona memorial project. In the final analysis, I'm not sure we can know what his "position" was on the war. But the above examples come from his own mouth and give us an indication of his thinking.

[epf]

He also told Vegas audiences in 1969 that he was "drafted and shafted" in reference to his late 50s conscription. This is evidence that he harbored some bitterness about the military pulling the rug out from under his career, being shipped off to Germany and living away from his mother in her final months.

All I'm saying is that his feelings towards Uncle Sam and politically driven military policies may have been more skeptical and complex than his badge collecting fetish and admiration of the FBI/police would suggest. Surely he identified with the troops and we know he respected service given his assistance to the Arizona memorial project. In the final analysis, I'm not sure we can know what his "position" was on the war. But the above examples come from his own mouth and give us an indication of his thinking.

Good points. I don't think it is very unlikely to speculate about the possibility that Elvis suffered from some form of Stockholm syndrome, where the victim tends to identify with the abuser.
Elvis once referred in writing in the later part of his life to the colonel as 'genius'. That says a lot, as Elvis was well aware of the fact that he was also shafted by his manager.
imho Elvis was unable to beat the forces that were his undoing, so he tried to join them. In doing so, he inflicted enormous emotional pain on himself because he knew...
And we all know how he tried to ease that pain...

[Scott]

I don't think it is very unlikely to speculate about the possibility that Elvis suffered from some form of Stockholm syndrome, where the victim tends to identify with the abuser.