sinatra going the elvis way. for the audiophiles

[frus75]

Sinatra has followed ELVIS by releasing a best of album that has rocketed to Billboard number 2 position, based on a new sound just ike ELV1S cd from 2002. Apart from following Elvis in concept, sound and success, the Sinatra cd has raised some controversy amongst audiophiles reminiscent of the days of the Hound Dog "POP".

Here you have a technical audio review by a friend of mine.....SINATRA has entered the loudness war!!


http://web.mac.com/mlutthans/iWeb/Site%206b/Introduction.html

[Cryogenic]

Yep. The repeating idea there is that Frank now sounds louder than ever. But, in music, like most things in life, less is more. I can't tell just listening to a couple of samples on cheap headphones, but I bet one could describe the new sound as soulless. Subtlety is the name of the game -- or, rather, should be the name of the game -- especially on a lovely bossa nova song like "The Girl from Ipanema". Oh, well.

[KiwiAlan]

I fine body of work represented here. I will probably be a buyer.

Note that the master tapes are safely under controll of the Sinatra Family and not Reprise or Capitol.

Praise be that the Presley Family does not have controll!

Steve Hoffman has pointed out that numerous tape recorders were kept running during Sinatra sessions thus giving tremendous scope for finding the best possible restoration source.

[frus75]

Yes. It's a pity, as most of the new mixes are delightful....the problem beeing the remastering.....

Regarding the masters, that's one of the main reasons Sinatra built Reprise, giving the artists total control over their recorded output.

[JerryNodak]

Yep. The repeating idea there is that Frank now sounds louder than ever. But, in music, like most things in life, less is more. I can't tell just listening to a couple of samples on cheap headphones, but I bet one could describe the new sound as soulless. Subtlety is the name of the game -- or, rather, should be the name of the game -- especially on a lovely bossa nova song like "The Girl from Ipanema". Oh, well.

Fine post, Cryogenic. That's always been my main beef with E1. Loud, but souless. I was going to buy the 'new' Sinatra release, but after reading that in- depth review I may pass.

[Steve_M]

E1 is often described as "loud" but David Bendeth took time out to say that they did not increase the "loudness". Okay, so maybe "loud" isn't the correct word to use, but can someone explain why it is referred to as loud and what it really is and what's the difference? (in janet & john terms wherever possible please )

[ColinB]

E1 is often described as "loud" but David Bendeth took time out to say that they did not increase the "loudness". Okay, so maybe "loud" isn't the correct word to use, but can someone explain why it is referred to as loud and what it really is and what's the difference? (in janet & john terms wherever possible please )

It sounds louder...

[Steve_M]

Well cant people turn the volume down?

[ColinB]

Well cant people turn the volume down?

Yes.

[Steve_M]

So why are they complaining about something that's withon their control?

I'm going along with this but dont believe it can be this simple

[ColinB]

So why are they complaining about something that's withon their control?

I'm going along with this but dont believe it can be this simple

If the overall audio is too 'loud' the nuances of even louder passages will be lost.

[Steve_M]

So why are they complaining about something that's withon their control?

I'm going along with this but dont believe it can be this simple

If the overall audio is too 'loud' the nuances of even louder passages will be lost.

Can we go back to the Janet & John thing?

[ColinB]

So why are they complaining about something that's withon their control?

I'm going along with this but dont believe it can be this simple

If the overall audio is too 'loud' the nuances of even louder passages will be lost.

Can we go back to the Janet & John thing?

"The louder parts will get 'clipped' if the overall 'loudness' is mastered too high", said Janet, as she opened John's shirt and lovingly........................................................

[Steve_M]

Okay, we're talking about pushing things over the edge so that they "disappear", but i thought that was what DB was saying, that he didn't do that. Maybe i just misunderstood him. I'm no audiophile.

[Richard Palmer]

So why are they complaining about something that's withon their control?

I'm going along with this but dont believe it can be this simple

If the overall audio is too 'loud' the nuances of even louder passages will be lost.

Can we go back to the Janet & John thing?

Here's how I understand it, which may well be wrong.

CDs were originally sold on the basis that you could achieve a high dynamic range - the quiet parts could be really quiet, while the loud parts could be really loud. Master a vinyl record too quiet, and you may not hear it because of surface noise, too loud and the needle will quite literally jump out of the groove, because the volume of a vinyl groove is created by the peaks and troughs that the needle has to plough through.

What's happening with modern CDs is that they don't have what was promised. Everything stays within a much narrower range, and so it's less subtle. Vinyl was, it turns out, not so bad after all.

[Steve_M]

Richard you've just ended up giving a logical reason for why it can't be loud, haven't oyu? folks are saying E1 is too loud but you're saying it shouldn't be.

No? Yes? somewhere in between?

[Richard Palmer]

Richard you've just ended up giving a logical reason for why it can't be loud, haven't oyu? folks are saying E1 is too loud but you're saying it shouldn't be.

No? Yes? somewhere in between?

I don't know for sure, but I'm betting it has a lot to do with the equipment that you use to play it. If you're sitting in your den listening to something on your Hi-Fi, then the new way of doing it is just going to sound plain 'wrong'. Walk through a shopping precinct with it coming through the headphones of your Ipod, and it's going to sound a lot better, because you'll hear everything over the noise that's surrounding you - and I think that this is probably what the record companies have in mind.

I know that when Paul Simon's last album came out - the one with the 'sonic landscape' by Eno - I played it through speakers and I wasn't as impressed as when I played it on my MP3 player. That might be my imagination, but it seemed to me that it had been mastered with the download generation in mind.

[Matthew]

Okay, we're talking about pushing things over the edge so that they "disappear", but i thought that was what DB was saying, that he didn't do that. Maybe i just misunderstood him. I'm no audiophile.

David Bendeth didn't remaster the recordings on "30 #1 Hits" release, he along with one Ray Bardani created the new mixes of tracks 14-30. The remastering was handled by Ted Jensen for the mono recordings and by George Marino for the remaining songs. The album was overall mastered too hot with little room for audio dynamics. Now, David is listed as the compilation producer for this album so perhaps he had final say so on the new masters, if you do a forum search there is an extensive thread that David contributes to on the topic... you can bump it if you like.

[Cryogenic]

Steve (et al) .... Watch this:

[frus75]

Besides, compression makes EVERYTHING louder. As you read in the link, Sinatra sounds equally loud wether he's whispering wether the whole orchestra is banging, so we loose the subtleness of crescendos etc.

If you can afford it and like Sinatra, buy it, you'll hear the promise of the new mixes. Because let's say it clear, ELV1S is damn loud, but some mixes (specially In The Ghetto and The Wonder Of You) are very promising, if only the proper mastering had been made.

[Hoops_McCain]

The article mentions Larry Walsh will be involved with the project, at least thats promising. When it comes to the classic Capitol years of Sinatra on CD, the original Larry Walsh mastered discs are still the best sounding discs out there IMO. That said, this article does scare me, and I will wait and read some reviews before purchasing this disc.

If your a Sinatra fan however, Very Promising news about the classic Capitol period !!! MFSL is set to release two discs by the end of this month... Nice and Easy, and Only For the Lonely, and there may be more to come.

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/82905

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/82904

[elvissessions]

For those who don't understand the loudness war, this is still probably about the simplest explanation, with video and sound, available:

Click here for Youtube video

As far as Bendeth's comments on his work's loudness, I'm not sure what he thinks he's hearing. But if you can find any meaningful dynamic range in, say, Burning Love from E1, please let me know:

[drjohncarpenter]

Is that GIF image really "Burning Love" from E1? If so, are most of the tracks this loud?

[frus75]

Is that GIF image really "Burning Love" from E1? If so, are most of the tracks this loud?

I think they are Doc. I remember when I bought ELV1S I didn't have a car, and my girlfriend (now my wife) and I listened to it on her little 1994 Opel Corsa. With just 4 little speakers (no sub, no tweeters, no high fidelity system) it sounded TERRIFIC as loudness, compression, ultra bass compensated our bad equipment. Nowadays, on my car's soundsystem they sound terribly LOUD, if I play Are you lonesome tonight the bass is all distortion if I don't low the volume. Only Way Down sounds ok. Of course there are terriffic mixes on it, especially In The Ghetto and Wonder of You

[BigredG]

Steve (et al) .... Watch this:

An interesting graphical explanation. Cheers