Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

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drjohncarpenter
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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452772

Post by drjohncarpenter »

Dan_T wrote:I disagree,the book was alreadly in the making at the time of that phone call,I doubt anything Elvis said in that phone call would have made an ounce of difference.
You must not know much about publishing. The deal could easily have been squelched in October 1976. One might argue that this was a private hope of Red's -- that Elvis would make amends, both personally and in terms of his health, after the book deal was killed. But it did not happen.

Don't blame the messenger for that.
Dan_T wrote:And don't forget,this is the supposed phone call in which Elvis "Begs,please don't hurt me" the the fact that it was recorded shows Red's and Sonny's intent.
Red taped the call for his own safety. There is nothing wrong with that. He had seen Elvis threaten the lives of others plenty of times, not to mention rough gun play -- Mike Stone in '73, July '75 tour, anyone? -- and had heard some nasty things since Elvis cut him off the previous July.
Dan_T wrote:At the very,very least,they could have said,if you don't make our situation right,and you don't get proper help,then we're gonna go public with it all.
If you knew more about the Elvis story, you would be fully aware that Red had a very serious talk with Elvis in July of 1975 -- to which Presley ultimately decreed he was going to do what he wanted, period. And if they didn't like it, they could leave. Elvis actually used much rougher language than that.

For someone so harsh over the West's book, you have yet to reply with anything substantially better as an alternative. That's not very fair, is it?


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Dan_T

Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452782

Post by Dan_T »

I told you I was reffering to their actions after they were fired,NOT the "talks" they had whilst still in his employ,you know this,or are you so thick that you cannot comprehend what I write?

They did not threaten Elvis with going public,they merely showed,and voiced their concerns to Elvis,which I admire them for,but that was futile.

And for your info,I know as much about the Elvis story as you do. they wanted to write an expose book,and nothing was going to stop them.

Did I start telling you,you couldn't know much about the Elvis Story when not too long ago you questioned my "source" when I stated the Steve Binder wanted to take the Camera's into the dressing room and film there,but it was vetoed by the Col'?. a fact known for decades....



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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452783

Post by Bodie »

Dan,

You may find this info interesting.

Sonny called Elvis' home in Palm Springs, the next day after Vernon had notified him of his dismissal but Elvis wasn’t up yet, according to one of the guys he talked to that answered the phone. The next day when he called back the number had been changed. A few days later, Dave Hebler found out that Elvis had left Palm Springs and gone to Las Vegas to stay at Dr. Ghanem’s home.
The Dr. answered the phone and Sonny asked if Elvis was awake yet. He said yes he was, and that he had just finished eating. Sonny asked the Dr. to ask Elvis if he could talk with him for a moment, which he did. Dr. Ghanem came back and said Elvis didn’t want to talk to him. Sonny suggested Elvis might be thinking that he was going to ask for his job back, so he asked the doctor if he would explain that wasn’t the case at all, he just wanted to know the real reason why he was fired. Sonny even told the doctor he could ask him and tell him Elvis’ answer, that Elvis didn’t need to talk with him if he didn’t want to. Ghanem got back on the phone and told Sonny, Elvis didn’t want to talk about it. He told Dr. Ghanem, “Well, please tell Elvis I won’t be calling back.”
Even after Sonny was fired.Elvis refused to talk to him.

Sonny has said they wrote the book out of 'bitterness'
After being treated like that, can you blame him?




Dan_T

Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452785

Post by Dan_T »

Hi Bodie,thanks for that,but I know about the times Elvis refused to talk to them.

They could easily have got the message through to,Elvis,and if that going public was the message,I bet you Elvis would have listened,I doubt very much he would have told them to go and do it.

Elvis knew it was too late,they had already started plans for the book.

Dan.



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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452787

Post by drjohncarpenter »

Dan_T wrote:I told you I was reffering to their actions after they were fired,NOT the "talks" they had whilst still in his employ,you know this.
My previous posts clearly cite the October '76 phone call.

As this discussion continued, it did not seem out of place to mention Red's efforts before they were fired, as it was relevant to the conversation about their motivations.

Your name-calling indicates another agenda, so I am done here.

See ya.


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Dan_T

Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452788

Post by Dan_T »

Bodie wrote:Dan,


Sonny has said they wrote the book out of 'bitterness'
After being treated like that, can you blame him?
Well,the thread asked if the book hadn't have come out would Elvis had lived longer,and in my opinion UI think he would have.

Can I blame them? yes and no,I just wish they would have gave Elvis an Ultimatum,which they did NOT.

Dan.



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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452802

Post by Bodie »

Dan_T wrote:Hi Bodie,thanks for that,but I know about the times Elvis refused to talk to them.

They could easily have got the message through to,Elvis,and if that going public was the message,I bet you Elvis would have listened,I doubt very much he would have told them to go and do it.

Elvis knew it was too late,they had already started plans for the book.

Dan.
I think the way they were fired was more to do with the writing of the book than their actual firing.

It was terrible the way Elvis treated Red and Sonny after so many years working for him.Even Esposito said they were very good at their job.
To just cut them off like that was just cold.
If they were gonna get fired then Elvis should have done it with more dignity than that.
I think after he got the knock-back from Elvis, Sonny wasnt that bothered about trying to work something out.




Dan_T

Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452811

Post by Dan_T »

Oh I understand where you are coming from,Bodie,but it's also been stated that they knew,or it was known within the circle,that Elvis would have had them back in the near future.

Perhaps that was Elvis's "Wake Up Call" for Red and Sonny that backfired on Elvis.

One things certain though,Elvis had no idea somebody so close to him would,or could, do such a thing to him.

Dan.



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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452819

Post by Bodie »

Dan_T wrote:Oh I understand where you are coming from,Bodie,but it's also been stated that they knew,or it was known within the circle,that Elvis would have had them back in the near future.

Perhaps that was Elvis's "Wake Up Call" for Red and Sonny that backfired on Elvis.

One things certain though,Elvis had no idea somebody so close to him would,or could, do such a thing to him.

Dan.
Your correct.
Esposito has said that Elvis was gonna have them back but i think Red and Sonny were fed up being treated like that.Red has stated that he knew he would never go back after that.
They seemed to have got fired quite often but then thats Elvis having control over their lives which im sure any man would only put up with for so long.
Elvis was just so messed up he didnt know what he was doing, poor guy.He just didnt realise he was hurting the only people who would have given their lives for him.
Very tragic which is why i think its just time for them to be forgiven by the fans.




Dan_T

Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452822

Post by Dan_T »

Well, I think for whateven reason they wrote the book,I think they have been "Forgiven" by most,they seem to attract an audience wherever they go on the Elvis circuit.




epf

Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452823

Post by epf »

Whatever stance we take, we probably take because of love for Elvis’ music. So while disagreeing with each other so ferociously let’s not forget it is that love that brought us together here (amen).

Anyway, this obviously is a difficult phase in Elvis’ life and career. Was it justifiable how Elvis sacked and treated his bodyguards? No.
But does one wrong make another wrong right? I don’t think so, not if you start the book out of bitterness.

Besides, in the phone conversation of October 1976 Elvis gladly offers Red his help, so that too could be viewed as an opening as well.
I don’t think the bodyguards are to be held responsible for the untimely death of one of the worlds’ greatest artists, but that does not make them saints either. It was, IMHO, a dysfunctional relationship to begin with: friend/employer vs. friend/employees. There was a huge dependency on Elvis (paycheck!) and that troubles most friendships, if not all.

For me to be convinced they wrote the book out of friendship, they should have resigned themselves after everything else failed. If they had written the book after that, that argument (wake up call) would make sense with me.

For now, I still wonder, would they have written that book if Elvis had not fired them? Very unlikely.




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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452824

Post by Dan_T »

Very well put,epf !



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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452828

Post by Bodie »

epf,
Yes, you have brought up some good points there.
Ive always believed that it was the way they were fired that made them write the book.



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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

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Post by midnightx »

Going back to the original question, would he have lived longer? Doubtful. The drug overdose (or heart attack or allergic codeine reaction, etc) that occurred on August 16th, 1977 was not because of the book. Elvis' tragic decline was due to a series of events - and while the book was certainly on his mind that fateful August, it was just one of many issues thrown onto the pile.

Then again, some believe he is living in Kalamazoo in a doublewide and driving an 18 wheeler....



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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

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Post by ColinB »

midnightx wrote:Elvis' tragic decline was due to a series of events - and while the book was certainly on his mind that fateful August, it was just one of many issues thrown onto the pile.
I said words to that effect quite a few posts back..............................


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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

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Post by drjohncarpenter »

ColinB wrote:I said words to that effect quite a few posts back..............................
Yes, and I was hanging on to every one of them.


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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452850

Post by ColinB »

drjohncarpenter wrote:
ColinB wrote:I said words to that effect quite a few posts back..............................
Yes, and I was hanging on to every one of them.
Touche !

Well, I'm glad someone read it...............................


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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452851

Post by KiwiAlan »

So it is agreed then.

A book killed Elvis...a paperback at that


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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452863

Post by ColinB »

KiwiAlan wrote:So it is agreed then.

A book killed Elvis...a paperback at that
Some of us never said that................................


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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452865

Post by Elvis Australia »

I have spoken with Red West at some length about this and I do believe that he genuinely cared for Elvis. Also that he regrets his involvement. There is ample evidence he and others tried to stop the drugs getting to Elvis over the years. When he says the book was to try to challenge Elvis, to help him, I believe he is partly correct. But I think/suspect that there were other motives that were not so good. The bit about Red wanting to help Elvis I have no doubt about but I agree it is not the right way to go about it.

I discussed with Red one principal of psychology that I have learned that would have led to a better approach and he acknowledged my point. But he did not know that then. Few do today.

The problem is - as I think the Doc is saying, nothing was going to help Elvis. He was to far gone health wise and was not the type of personality that was going to have people telling him what to do.

I think Elvis was a very troubled person all his life. He was born with a natural gift but the drive for success came from a dysfunctional childhood - He was a very insecure person, very troubled, like a LOT of celebrities! This is what drove him on to the to want the success he achieved so badly and also made it so that he could not walk away. Basically the very same thing that made him great also ended his life prematurely.

I agree with Bodie and Tony “When are Elvis fans gonna wake up and realise that the blame for Elvis's downfall was solely down to Elvis.As much as I think that Elvis was the greatest person who has ever walked this earth, no one at all is to be blamed for the way his life ended. The fact is that Elvis was slowly killing himself and he wouldn’t listen to no one.”

Tony when you say “The sad fact is that they tried and tried to stop Elvis” you may not realize how right you are.

You see the real SAD fact is that they tried. (Yes this is correct.) To tell someone like Elvis to not do something is wrong. What is he going to do? He is going to do it!

I mentioned ‘one principal of psychology’ above. The correct approach would have been to not tell Elvis what to do, not rescue him let him decide, work it out for himself. If this had have been done early enough (And it could not have been done in the last few years I don’t think as he had a lifetime of being used to being ‘rescued’.) Elvis may have made the move. I don’t want to go into too much detail but this is something I have learned in dealing with people with drug problems or addictive problems. Including reading and thinking about Elvis. The problem stems from a parent being too controlling and results in a child who grows up that will not be told what to do – in his mind he is in control this way – and leads to addictions.

Also I think that when he had such a controlling mother he was never ever going to let another woman – or anyone - be so dominate or in 'control'. So his relationships always failed. He could not commit to an even relationship, he was in control. Dr. William Glasser, MD in his Choice Theory http://www.wglasser.com/ contends that depression is caused in almost all instances (in fact I think he says all) because of a lack of, or problem with relationships. (Usuallly with the opposite sex.) Elvis never was able to form a proper relationship and his life was out of control largely as a result. There is more to this, a lot more, but this is a brief summery. I am not qualified to explain this in extreme detail so I hope you get my point.

As I said in a previous post in this forum; Johnny Cash had June Carter, Waylon Jennings had Jessi Colter. Both of these lovely ladies saved their men's lives. It is a shame Elvis did not allow Priscilla to complement their marriage in her own way, as did Johnny and Waylon, as she is obviously not only smart but talented. If he did he would be alive today!

"rehab" was in the vocabulary back then. Elvis was just not going to be open to it. Imagine ELVIS the man who’s fans thought he was God, whose friends alike thought he would never die, imagine the chance of ELVIS being willing to go to rehab. After all he was only taking what the Doctor gave him. Jerry Schilling mentions plans for rehab in his recent book. Elvis refused.

At the end of the day, we all need to be grateful for the years Elvis did have on this earth and for what he gave the world, most appreciated by his fans. In the end he gave too much of himself. He was in some ways too nice. He did not protect or look after himself. He just gave. And we love him for it. We have the privialge of being able to listen to his music as people will I suspect as long as this planet survives.


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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452876

Post by Little Darlin »

Bravo David!

What you wrote hurts like hell but makes sense.. I used to fight tooth and nail with anyone who said Elvis had a Drug Problem, would never believe it, but after a while when you listen to people who were there, people who had went to see him perform and were bitterly disappointed a couple of times then you start to take notice.

It's been mentioned in this thread about giving Elvis a challenge, to let him focus on something else .. if trying to stay Drug free whilst your 9 year old Daughter was staying with you isn't a good one then I don't know what is.

I'm still a huge fan of Elvis whether he took Drugs or not .. what I am disappointed with him for is that he robbed his Daughter and the Fans of a lot more years of his talent and love.


I saw Elvis live in concert the year before he died. Even then, he was bigger than life, and had amazing charisma. Haven't seen anything like it since, ....until Adam.........Nocturnal 2010
No matter how old you are, no matter who you sleep with, no matter what color your skin is, we can all party together.” - Adam Lambert 2010

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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452882

Post by Elvis Australia »

Yes it is ridiculus to not like someone because they have a drug problem, hypocricicaly really. We all have our faults.

The following comment is from someone else that is a hero of mine:

"It's time society realised people who have a drug problem are not necessarily bad people, they're hurting people".

"Most of our behaviour is people just trying to meet their needs, because unmet needs produce emotional pain in our lives."

"It's both scary and alarming what we'll resort to in order to escape our pain, even to the point of compromising our own convictions."

"People need our love and understanding, not our condemnation. Doctors talk about addictive personalities - there's no such thing, It's how much emotional pain there is in a person's life."

"The more pain there is, the more vulnerable and prone they are to get hooked on something that relieves their pain. It's time we realised that drugs are not the problem but a symptom of far deeper issues, both in people's lives and in our society."


- Gary Ablett - Former Geelong AFL (Australian) Football player. (2007)

Gary Ablett was one of the greatest players ever to play Australian Football.


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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452886

Post by Elvis_Priestly »

Somehow the Doc saw fit to use my original post as a focus for his inimitable form of scorn. There is, as ever, little point in directly challenging him and I don't seem to have the facility to delete my posts the way he was able to delete his original reply to me.

I would like to point out that:
Elvis_Priestly wrote:How to help a friend - with a smirk on your face, a gun on your shoulder and an exclusive in the paper.
Should not be taken to imply that I hold Messrs West, West and Hebler in anyway responsible for the death of Elvis. I will, as best I can, continue to avoid blaming anyone - including Elvis himself.

Personal and professional encounters with the vagaries of life has taught me that such finger pointing against the subject themselves, or those surrounding them, serves no purpose and certainly is rarely beneficial to the subject.

Personal responsibility is a virtue : blaming is a vice.

I wrote what I saw in the picture, a response to that followed (which has now been deleted and replaced by a more polished, though equally inaccurate analysis) which seems to have been based on a presumption that my comment was based in some personal anger/unresolved issues concerning the authors of that book. To those who may have been mislead by this caricature of my account let me assure you it is incorrect.


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Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452912

Post by bobb »

Elvis Australia wrote:Yes it is ridiculus to not like someone because they have a drug problem, hypocricicaly really. We all have our faults.

The following comment is from someone else that is a hero of mine:

"It's time society realised people who have a drug problem are not necessarily bad people, they're hurting people".

"Most of our behaviour is people just trying to meet their needs, because unmet needs produce emotional pain in our lives."

"It's both scary and alarming what we'll resort to in order to escape our pain, even to the point of compromising our own convictions."

"People need our love and understanding, not our condemnation. Doctors talk about addictive personalities - there's no such thing, It's how much emotional pain there is in a person's life."

"The more pain there is, the more vulnerable and prone they are to get hooked on something that relieves their pain. It's time we realised that drugs are not the problem but a symptom of far deeper issues, both in people's lives and in our society."

- Gary Ablett - Former Geelong AFL (Australian) Football player. (2007)

Gary Ablett was one of the greatest players ever to play Australian Football.

.
Couldn't agree more

Now if we could only persuade Nathan to come back


Bob b




Brad M

Re: Elvis fights to ban book that tells all..

#452920

Post by Brad M »

Elvis was slippin' away long before this book was even began.

Even had they not wrote it, Elvis still would have passed away sooner than later. With the amount of prescription drugs he was taking, and horribe eating habbits. It was bound to happen and it did.

I don't plan Sonny Dave, or Red. I applaud them for trying to stand up to Elvis and tell him what he was doing to himself. I believe that they thought that was the only way they could tell him, because if they told him in person he was fired, or he wouldn't listen. Those guys, well Red and Sonny had been there for a VERY long time, they loved that man and still do I believe and really thought that writing that book would get Elvis to change his ways, and show them they were wrong but he didn' unfortunatley.


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