In this ebay auction it does mention the push marks, however in my opinion the label looks too clean and the color used for the label looks more like the color used for the reproductions made up in the early 70's which was lighter that what was used for the original SUN records from the early 50's, plus the label looks a little too off center, just like the SUN records made up in the early 70's.
They don't all have push marks. And the first time I saw an original Sun single, I was surprised how bright and clean the label was. Stored properly, there's no reason the label should fade is there? I mean it's only fifty years old, it's not the dead sea scrolls.
Swithin StCleeve wrote:They don't all have push marks. Hmmm, Are you sure about that Swithin StCleeve ?
I personally thought all the original SUN records had them.
Could you have been looking at reproductions and were told what you were looking at were original?
Does anyone know, has this been documented somewhere to confirm this? I'm curious now.
And the first time I saw an original Sun single, I was surprised how bright and clean the label was. Stored properly, there's no reason the label should fade is there? I mean it's only fifty years old, it's not the dead sea scrolls.
True, but once anything is handled and is in a open air environment it can't help it self not age, because it will happen regardless to some degree. The ink or the color used on the original SUN records does appear to be darker an not as bright as the reproductions made in the 70's. Plus because of the darkness used in the out line of the lettering it also gives an illusion which may not be an illusion at all, but it does present a appearance of deeper or better detail.
Any chance you could have been looking at reproductions Swithin StCleeve?
KiwiAlan wrote:It strikes me as being rather strange that anyone would store away Elvis' first single in mint condition for 50 years.
He was just one of hundreds of would be rockabilly stars releasing thier first record in the mid-fifties.
I've got singles that I bought, played once, and then put in a box, never to see daylight again. It wasn't that I was deliberately trying to preserve them, I just never throw records away.
Spellbinder wrote:The information about push marks on Sun 45s has been covered so many times on this MB.
Well, it would appear I have missed those threads Spellbinder.
What's the answer I am looking for?
Do all original SUN 45's have the push marks?
PEP
Hi Pep, yes the original sun records had the push marks to the right of the label 3 of them
But with the cleanest of copys i doubt they would be super clean i have seen a couple over the past 6 months and they are originals but dont look new! even after 50 years there would signs of fading and discoularation even if they were looked after really well which they should be. But Im sure others who may own all 5 could offer more as i collect everything but vinyl.
I was told not all Sun singles had push marks by a collector at the Derby 'ill gotten gains' auction last year. A friend and I were looking at the Sun singles (78s & 45s mind you!), and a couple of guys there seemed real collectors.
From what I remember (are you reading this Crazy Arms?, can you back me up?), the push marks were the records produced in Memphis, but other original Sun records weren't pressed locally. He told me collectors preffered the Memphis pressings, though a record pressed elsewhere would also be considered an 'original'.
I wouldn't be surprised if both those you pictured were original, if the records were pressed in different plants, then the labels may well be slightly different. If you were going to fake a record, you'd not make 'mistakes' like missing out whole words!
That's as much as I know. These guys seemed to know their stuff, but they convinced me at the time. So much so I took a close up picture of the label of the disc so I knew in future, what an original looked like.
But, he could have been wrong, of course. People love to play the expert, but this guy (and his mate) seemed genuine enough.
Swithin StCleeve wrote:I was told not all Sun singles had push marks by a collector at the Derby 'ill gotten gains' auction last year. A friend and I were looking at the Sun singles (78s & 45s mind you!), and a couple of guys there seemed real collectors.
From what I remember (are you reading this Crazy Arms?, can you back me up?), the push marks were the records produced in Memphis, but other original Sun records weren't pressed locally. He told me collectors preffered the Memphis pressings, though a record pressed elsewhere would also be considered an 'original'.
I wouldn't be surprised if both those you pictured were original, if the records were pressed in different plants, then the labels may well be slightly different. If you were going to fake a record, you'd not make 'mistakes' like missing out whole words!
That's as much as I know. These guys seemed to know their stuff, but they convinced me at the time. So much so I took a close up picture of the label of the disc so I knew in future, what an original looked like.
But, he could have been wrong, of course. People love to play the expert, but this guy (and his mate) seemed genuine enough.
Hmmm, I didn't think Philips was using oustide plants until after Elvis made it big.
Could someone confirm this?
With regards' to the labels I posted, there are other differences other than the lack of maybe push marks or the difference in the color of the label which One can see from the original where it mention's "Wabash Music Co. BMI" on the left hand side of the label, the fake only mentions "Wabash BMI" on the left hand side, "That's All Right" is printed closer to the hole, where the fake is trying to have appeared to have corrected the problem, if we want to call it that, but have failed to use the same font, also notice on the orginal it says "Elvis Presley with Scotty and Bill" where the fake says just "Elvis Presley Scotty and Bill", the word "with" is not there on the fake and again on the fake a different font is used.
PEP
Swithin StCleeve wrote:I was told not all Sun singles had push marks by a collector at the Derby 'ill gotten gains' auction last year. A friend and I were looking at the Sun singles (78s & 45s mind you!), and a couple of guys there seemed real collectors.
From what I remember (are you reading this Crazy Arms?, can you back me up?), the push marks were the records produced in Memphis, but other original Sun records weren't pressed locally. He told me collectors preffered the Memphis pressings, though a record pressed elsewhere would also be considered an 'original'.
I wouldn't be surprised if both those you pictured were original, if the records were pressed in different plants, then the labels may well be slightly different. If you were going to fake a record, you'd not make 'mistakes' like missing out whole words!
That's as much as I know. These guys seemed to know their stuff, but they convinced me at the time. So much so I took a close up picture of the label of the disc so I knew in future, what an original looked like.
But, he could have been wrong, of course. People love to play the expert, but this guy (and his mate) seemed genuine enough.
All original Elvis Sun Records along with all the rest of the artists from the 50s was made in Memphis and no where else. Sun International was not around in the 50s at all to make them for other places. They didn't come to view until the late 60s to early 70s. Who ever told you that mess is telling you the wrong info. All Elvis Price Guides says that if they don't have the Push Marks and that they have labels "off center" then they are fakes. As PEP has pointed out, most of the Elvis Original Sun records has their labels off center or that is what they are called. Most of the time you will see the song title in the case of the photo that PEP put up right next to the hole. All fakes has nearly perfect labels minus a few words missing as PEP also pointed out. Also, some of the labels with have Memphis Tennesse right at the edge of the label and the song title further from the hole that normal. Now, there is only a few, very few originals which has the label almost perfect. I have only seen one like that and it wasn't That's All Right. That 45 I saw was Baby Let's Play House which had autograph of Elvis on it and was certified and had five photos that shows Elvis signing the 45. He signed that 45 in 1976 after a show. There has been some fakes that even went as far as being an exact copy of the original but they didn't have the push marks.
elvislennon wrote:That 45 I saw was Baby Let's Play House which had autograph of Elvis on it and was certified and had five photos that shows Elvis signing the 45. He signed that 45 in 1976 after a show. There has been some fakes that even went as far as being an exact copy of the original but they didn't have the push marks.
Any chance you have access to the photo's elvislennon?
Seeing Elvis sign one of his own SUN 45's would be pretty cool to see.
PEP, I think this might be a real one, but I simply can't tell enough from the photo to know. I will say this though, don't judge the label colors by the scans--they often come out distorted looking.
elvislennon wrote:That 45 I saw was Baby Let's Play House which had autograph of Elvis on it and was certified and had five photos that shows Elvis signing the 45. He signed that 45 in 1976 after a show. There has been some fakes that even went as far as being an exact copy of the original but they didn't have the push marks.
Any chance you have access to the photo's elvislennon?
Seeing Elvis sign one of his own SUN 45's would be pretty cool to see.
PEP
I didn't save them when the 45 was on Ebay. I kick myself when thinking about that.
Also, the one on the left is a real 45 Sun Record and the one on the right is a fake.
elvislennon wrote:That 45 I saw was Baby Let's Play House which had autograph of Elvis on it and was certified and had five photos that shows Elvis signing the 45. He signed that 45 in 1976 after a show. There has been some fakes that even went as far as being an exact copy of the original but they didn't have the push marks.
Any chance you have access to the photo's elvislennon?
Seeing Elvis sign one of his own SUN 45's would be pretty cool to see.
PEP
I didn't save them when the 45 was on Ebay. I kick myself when thinking about that. Man that sucks.
Hmm so the pictures were on ebay, that's a good thing.
Anyone see the pictures Elvislennon is talking about and kept copies?
TheFunkyangel where were You? Did you happen to see them?
Of course there is Sun 45's in mint condition last year there was a factory box found with both Sun 209 and 223 in mint condition,
I think they had belonged to one of Sams marketing men and was sold on Ebay 209 was nearly 4000 USD, if I remember correct.
It is my opinion that the record on Ebay is the real deal, as someone else wrote, it could be "bad" photos. During my years trying to get all five singles I have learned that there WAS Elvis 45's pressed outside Memphis that didn't have the pushmarks, also not every singel pressed in the fifties had pushmarks so Sam did use other pressing plants than Memphis, or the plant changed their equipment to made the motherstamp, this said because the last 45 SUN 223 don't have the pushmarks. The pushmarks do not come from the machine pressed the singles it was already in the motherstamp, and different plants had different ways to produce their motherstamps.
The first four singles made in Memphis had pushmarks, the last 223 didn't. There is a lot of label versions on Elvis SUN 45's and they are all the real deal. Even if those records didn't sell millions they was repressed during the period 54 - 55.
Last summer I bought SUN 209 on 78 from a collector in Sweden and he showed me an Elvis RCA 45 made in Germany
that also had the pushmarks, real nice to see, it was one of the early 60's singles.
By the way, I haven't got the five SUN releases on 45 But I have 209 210 215 on 78's and 217 and 223 on 45's, Think that is real cool as the 78 format was very common in 54 the 45's was on their way but many people and jukeboxes used 78's the are all framed and hanging in my music room.
what about sun 45s from other artists? are they also supposed to have pushmarks?
for example i have "blue suede shoes" by carl perkins on sun 234. i've always thought this was a genuine 50s pressing but i cannot see or feel any pushmarks.
it definitely doesn't look like a 70s pressing and also has the typical (for 50s pressings) thicker vinyl below the label. same with a few other sun 45s i own (johnny cash, warren smith...). they all look really old but show no pushmarks...
"i think elvis presley will never be solved."
(nick tosches)
No one can for shure say if it or not ecist Elvis 45's pressed outside Memphis.The person that made this ( very good ) website says it "seems" that all four has pressmarks and was pressed in Memphis but not that it is so for shure.
He also give us the information about other releases from Sun like the Prisonair*s Walking in the rain SUN 186 from 53, it was pressed both in and outside Memphis because of the big demand for the single,.That is one year before Elvis come along and there was re pressings of Elvis single's.
I do not know when the pushmarks ended but for shure Your Perkins could be the real deal since the last Elvis was without pushmarks SUN 223 and Perkins was SUN 234. Either Sam changed pressing plant or the regular pressingplant in Memphis changed their equioment, But I have seen Blue Suede Shoes with puhmarks....and that is the end of 55....
Juan Luis wrote:There are over 37 label variations on Sun!!! Sometimes the catalog number is on the left side of the label instead of at the bottom. And under ELVIS PRESLEY there are two variations. Scotty and Bill or Scotty & Bill. They were pressed in Memphis and Los Angeles. All 5 singles from Memphis are "first pressings" . Los Angeles has 2 "first pressings" 217 and 223. Although the Los Angeles "2nd pressings" are rarer because of smaller print run in 1955! The Memphis for obvious reasons are the most sought after. The Los Angeles pressings have a delta,or triangle etched into the trail-off vinyl and the memphis pressings (earlier) have push-marks. These markings are three circles in a triangle pattern. Both the delta and push-marks are not known to have been reproduced. I will post an example of a legit THAT'S ALL RIGHT MAMA with catalogue number on the left side of label instead of the more common bottom.
I found what he said very interesting, you (meaning anyone may find it of interest too, if you missed it the first time around like I did )
Juan Luis thanks for posting the info once again.
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