Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Pete Dube
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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Pete Dube »

Ya know, I've heard some of these shows where he picks on Duke, and most of it comes across to my ears as humorous ribbing rather than mean-spirited bullying. There's only one show I've heard where Elvis says something mean to Duke. He says something like "You can't do anything right." Granted I wasn't there, and haven't heard anywhere near the number of shows Ernst has, so there may very well be many more with worse things said. And night after night even humorous ribbing can get old if you're the constant recipient.

Also the bit about Kathy not liking the way Elvis introduced her in summer '75
tours. There's one show where you hear Elvis say "Kathy takes affection anywhere she can get it," but it clearly is delivered in a humorous manner.

So what I'm trying to suggest is that, while Elvis did at times pick on (kiddingly or otherwise) or say cruel things to these people, maybe these people were a little overly sensitive? Just food for thought. I know it's fashionable to label Elvis as a moody-tyrannical-prick-bully during this period, but perhaps the situation wasn't quite so black & white?




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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Pete Dube »

For the record, I think Duke's playing is fine on Live On Stage In Memphis.




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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Juan Luis »

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Last edited by Juan Luis on Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.



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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Justin »

I dunno, I'm trying to see it through Duke's point of view and I think I'd also get a little aggravated--Elvis Presley or not. Elvis was such a strong personality that it would be extra irritating to be the butt of every single put down or joke. I've known people like that where you just feel like an idiot when they're around. Elvis seemed to have enjoyed jabbing Duke a little too much and never chose to let up.



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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by drjohncarpenter »

Pete Dube wrote:So what I'm trying to suggest is that, while Elvis did at times pick on (kiddingly or otherwise) or say cruel things to these people, maybe these people were a little overly sensitive?
No, Elvis was in the wrong, 100%.
Juan Luis wrote:Thanks for "anchoring" my thoughts DOC!
My pleasure!


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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Rob »

Pete Dube wrote:There's one show where you hear Elvis say "Kathy takes affection anywhere she can get it," but it clearly is delivered in a humorous manner.
He pretty much made the comment in one form or another during just about every show on the July 1975 tour. I have several shows from that tour and some of them were worse comments than others. There's no doubt that he was trying to be funny, but he was trying it at the expense of his employees and it was obvious that they didn't like it. Duke Bardwell aside, had I been Glen Hardin on September 28, 1974 in College Park, Elvis would have been without a piano player half way through the band introductions.



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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by frus75 »

well Elvis doesn't sound funny when he says "get it right duke damn" during the today sessions, I think prior to one take of "Susan when she tried"


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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by frus75 »

I guess Elvis was this type of person that keeps on a joke until it got really boring. Those people that again and again and again keep with the same joke and sometimes you happen to be the center of that joke, and one time is funny, two is ok, but 100 it is unbearable, specially if 10 guys laugh his asses at you because they're all yes-men (Red, Sonny, etc). A normal guy can't bear it, except if your vocation is to be a "buffon", like Charlie and Lamar.

ANd I think that if you didn't take those jokes happily, and stand like Duke did, Elvis took it as a personal ofense....

We all had our bad things, and Elvis was a human being.

But let me tell you, Duke is a gentleman. Period. Shame on elvis indeed.


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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Swithin StCleeve »

frus75 wrote:specially if 10 guys laugh his asses at you because they're all yes-men . Shame on elvis indeed.
I hated that clip on the On Tour out-takes with that glass of water. They are all laughing like it's the funniest thing in the world. It's creepy. And the bit where he says 'greatest head' and Red West is almost climbing the wall in hysterical fits of belly laughs.
Christ on a bike! Calm down lads!

Funny, in all the hours and hours of out-takes from sessions, we never hear Elvis being mean spirited to anyone though. It's just those later years, he changed and it's a bit sad. These people were only doing a job, it's like some people are rude to waitresses because they can't answer back. Hate that.




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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by ale »

About Duke's way of playing...i think he was a good player but the sound of his bass was horrible!...jerry's bass sounded more like a fender jazz bass which is known by musicians as one of the best bass around! :wink:




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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Swithin StCleeve »

ale wrote:About Duke's way of playing...i think he was a good player but the sound of his bass was horrible!...jerry's bass sounded more like a fender jazz bass which is known by musicians as one of the best bass around! :wink:
Funny enough I was just out for a walk and for some reason the College Park show was on my ipod so I had a listen. Apart from being a car wreck of a show, listen to Duke's bass on 'How Great Thou Art'. He comes in too early on Elvis' big bellow bit, forcing Elvis to rush it.
Poor Duke just didn't know the show well enough I reckon. Yet I wonder if Elvis ever said "we've got a new bass player, so let's spend a couple of days rehearsing". Somehow, I doubt he did.
And if Duke didn't laugh at all the King's jokes either, the poor guy had his card marked from the offset.



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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Justin »

[quote="frus75"]I guess Elvis was this type of person that keeps on a joke until it got really boring. Those people that again and again and again keep with the same joke and sometimes you happen to be the center of that joke, and one time is funny, two is ok, but 100 it is unbearable, specially if 10 guys laugh his asses at you because they're all yes-men (Red, Sonny, etc). A normal guy can't bear it, except if your vocation is to be a "buffon", like Charlie and Lamar.

ANd I think that if you didn't take those jokes happily, and stand like Duke did, Elvis took it as a personal ofense....quote]

I can definitely sense that with Elvis. The guys around him egged him on to be a certain way--and it stuck. If he was being annoying--they probably laughed with him and that made him think it was okay. Duke probably went against the grain and said "Not me, pal." Elvis probably wasn't used to someone working against him.

I came across this on Youtube. IIt's from that comedy show MadTV. It makes fun of Elvis and it's nothing to be proud of...but the essence or even the moral of the bit has to do with what we're talking about here, I think. It's Elvis telling pretty awful stories to his bodyguards and they're laughing it up and splitting their sides--complete buffoons. The stories are ridciulous and dumb yet they're loving it. As the years go on...the stories repeat and the bodyguards are fed up.

I was going to share it here on the MB but I didn't think it had that much relevance. But this thread might....




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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by BigredG »

ale wrote:For me is hard to believe Elvis disrespect someone from his inner circle like musicians as they were like a big family.
I think in '74 Elvis was not having a great time and his mood used to change a lot...that's why I think he was rough and agressive not only with Duke if not other people too.
Believe it Ale, it is there on loads of tapes. Duke plays his solo, and Elvis tries to gee him up (play it play it, blues Duke down in Louisiana), then saying something like "well he tried" ! It is embarassing and uncomfortable to hear.

Duke's most famous for "not being spoken to personally, just killing time so I can drink water" on the 1974 Live in Memphis album !!

Elvis' infamous intros for Kathy in July 1975 are almost as bad, but I think the disrespect for Duke is worse !!




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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Pete Dube »

Judging by all the comments from those who've heard numerous 74-75 shows, I can only conclude that Elvis was out of line to Duke during this period, and Kathy in July '75. Sad.



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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by drjohncarpenter »

As we know, Elvis was not in the best of health, mentally or physically -- thus, his aberrant behavior. A healthy Presley would never have acted that way to any of his crew.


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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Cryogenic »

drjohncarpenter wrote:As we know, Elvis was not in the best of health, mentally or physically -- thus, his aberrant behavior. A healthy Presley would never have acted that way to any of his crew.
No, probably not. He was even quick with audience members now and again (not that those he was quick with weren't already asking for it).



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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by ColinB »

I'm not saying that Elvis didn't have health problems at the time.

But people who work together, or who are close for some reason, can develop a 'banter' between them that can include [apparently] being very rude to each other.

They know it isn't for real, but anyone chancing upon it might think things were amiss somehow.

Sam & I used to vie with each other to see who could throw the biggest insult, but it was all good knock-about fun.

I'm sure something of that nature accounts for at least some of Elvis' behaviour.


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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by drjohncarpenter »

ColinB wrote:I'm sure something of that nature accounts for at least some of Elvis' behaviour.
Perhaps, but not in the examples cited in this topic.


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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Elvis_Priestly »

If a joke worked once Elvis did it over and over and over again: "funky angels", "without any hair", "no not much", "do it again JD", making JD laugh during "Why Me lord" etc. etc.

I remember when I realised the "no, not much" joke from Aloha Suspicious Minds was an old joke I felt "disappointed" but then realised that the crowds for each concert were different and weren't listening to soundboards/audience recordings all the time. It's like me doing weddings, I use the same joke at the beginning of every wedding ("Well John just think what the first things were Mary saw as she entered the Church? The aisle, the altar and you. Put them together and what do you get? "I'll alter you.") It got a good laugh the first time and the "audience" is always different so if it works I'll use it.
In my other incarnation, doing shows, one of Elvis's jokes STILL works "this is my first live performance in so many years - I've appeared dead before..." Doing a show, a service or a concert, the "entertainment" aspect of it, rather than just the pure musical/religious content will often mean you use what works again and again with different crowds. It's fairly important that those who are there time and time again, part of the "cast", play along with the script where the "stage directions" say laugh etc. because if the regular's stand behind or beside you stoney faced the "audience" will soon pick up on it. And think yourselves at a dinner partry or something if you say something funny (tell one of your standard jokes) you'll quickly glance at who you know best just to be reassured you aren't making a fool of yourself. Just offering a different perspective here from someone who publically performs on an at least weekly basis (ok so my congregation might only be 700 rather than 17,000 but I hope you get the drift!)

Maybe Duke was a pure musician unwilling/unable to enter into the "drama" of the full entertainment experience of an Elvis concert. I don't think Elvis would have liked the current concert format of having the band hid away so you can only see the star - maybe Duke would have.

If you listen to him during the Memphis PSA he definitely goes adrift after Elvis says "play it Duke" like the moment of realising he's in the spotlight becomes a lost second he's trying to catch back up with. I'm sure Lord Olivier wouldn't have been too pleased if Gertrude had frozen everytime he gave her the cue "Madam, how like you this play?" - he'd expect someone who didn't just know the words but could do the bard well. (I tried to resist, promise!)

My favourite line in the Man and His Music interview though is the last one:
Duke Bardwell wrote:It's been my pleasure, Trevor. Long live The King!
After all that's been said and told - that's decency.


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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Pete Dube »

ColinB wrote:I'm not saying that Elvis didn't have health problems at the time.

But people who work together, or who are close for some reason, can develop a 'banter' between them that can include [apparently] being very rude to each other.

They know it isn't for real, but anyone chancing upon it might think things were amiss somehow.

Sam & I used to vie with each other to see who could throw the biggest insult, but it was all good knock-about fun. I'm sure something of that nature accounts for at least some of Elvis' behavior.
Colin, I think that scenario is reasonable for Elvis' relationship with his MM familiars, but not to Duke Bardwell, who was not really an insider. He didn't even get the respect that Elvis showed to the other band members. Elvis seemed to regard him as little more than hired help.

And because Elvis apparently had an intimate relationship with Kathy his on stage comments to her in July '75 have an added edge which make them all the more inappropriate.




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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Pete Dube »

Elvis_Priestly wrote: It's like me doing weddings, I use the same joke at the beginning of every wedding ("Well John just think what the first things were Mary saw as she entered the Church? The aisle, the altar and you. Put them together and what do you get? "I'll alter you.")
Lol E Padre!




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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Juan Luis »

Elvis surely did not like the jokes on him. Remember reading Ron Tutt doing something and Elvis looked like he was going to kill him...something similar happened with Duke.



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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by Peter Franks »

IMETJB wrote:
Rob wrote:Duke was a good guy, but he wasn't in the same league as Jerry.
Interesting because I distinctly remember reading a post by someone on this board some time ago regarding Jerry's return to the band....Jerry realizing that the music wasn't the same from then on......

Anyone here can recall this story? The source?
The likely source is Peter Guralnick's Careless Love, page 565.
Rich_TCB wrote:
Duke Bardwell: So that last night in the dressing-room, as I was packing up I took my TCB off and gave it to Ronnie. I said. "Take this, I don't want it. I never was good in fraternities. Every time I tried to join a club, an organization or something like that, I never fit in." I never fit in this time - that's the way it felt.
Click here for the full interview:

http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/3123/dbint1.html
It's interesting to note that Elvis' feelings were reportedly similar: "Elvis received the news of Duke's departure with equanimity. He had never much liked Bardwell's attitude, he told the guys, and Duke had never been the kind of bass player they needed anyway" (source: Careless Love, Peter Guralnick, pg. 563).

There is undoubtedly some truth to the idea that Elvis' on stage behavior was "humorous ribbing rather than mean-spirited bullying" -- but it seems that, at the very least, Elvis was aware of his misdoings: "After several more goofy requests and encores, with Elvis, the band, and the audience all joining in the common hilarity, Elvis declared seriously, 'I'd like to say something now, ladies and gentlemen. I'd like to thank everybody on stage with me, really. I've been kidding them now for a couple of weeks, but, ahh... you've been really fantastic.'" This was on the same night as the infamous water-fight (recounted in the linked Bardwell interview) where Bardwell sprayed Elvis with water: "'You sonofabitch!' Elvis exclaimed off mike, and it was obvious even to audence members that he was not fooling around, but they cheered nonetheless as he picked up a bottle of Gatorade and said, 'You got an electric bass, son, what are you gonna do now? You're gonna drink a lot of Gatorade, that's what you're gonna do'" (source: Careless Love, Peter Guralnick, pg. 562).


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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by ColinB »

Pete Dube wrote:Colin, I think that scenario is reasonable for Elvis' relationship with his MM familiars, but not to Duke Bardwell, who was not really an insider.
He didn't even get the respect that Elvis showed to the other band members. Elvis seemed to regard him as little more than hired help.
And because Elvis apparently had an intimate relationship with Kathy his on stage comments to her in July '75 have an added edge which make them all the more inappropriate.
Oh, all right then..........


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Re: Elvis vs. Duke Bardwell--Why?

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Post by dl »

I don't like the style of Duke Bardwell. When I listen to all those soundboards from 1974 it is clear that the bassplayer couldn't really follow Elvis. I am sorry for Duke, but he just couldn't compete with Jerry or Emory.

But nevertheless it isn't nice to pick on him. Elvis had hired Duke and if he was not satisfiyed he sould have fired him. But to keep someone in the band and pick on him constantly isn't a nice gesture at all. Elvis could be an friend and maybe someone should have told him.


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