THE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN MYSTERY!

[TONY]

Looking at the set lists for both MSG concerts that were released, along with the set lists for Elvis' "On tour" shows from April '72 (2 months earlier), would I be correct in assuming that the track running order for the original "Live at Madison Square Garden" LP release has been tampered with??! I guess there are edits too, as the afternnon show has a longer running time than the evening show. I am sure that he must have sung "Until it's time for you to go" during that show as he did it at nearly every concert around that time. Can ANYBODY clear this age old mystery up??
TONY DOBB

[Elvis#1]

First there were no song's deleted from the Evening show and Elvis did not sing "Until its time for you to go". The only things that were deleted from the show were when Elvis talked to the audience which he didnt do to much of anyway. Otherwise no songs were deleted from the M.S.G Evening show it's as about complete as you can get. Hope this helps.

Steve

[TONY]

But I've read reports in the past that Elvis did "Until...." and "Blue suede shoes" in the evening show. Also, my point about the running order could be true, as Elvis generally did the band intros after "Suspicious minds" and NOT anywhere else.
TONY DOBB

[ForeverElvis]

taken from an audience recording of the 06/10 evening show - the following edits are revealed: (yes I know that there are many that don't believe, but hey you can lead a horse to water......)

here's the details of what has been edited from the June 10th.1972 evening
show at MSG

2001 THEME- running time 1.06 was edited - (the total time is written
here, compare this to what is on the LP)
Until It's Time For You To Go-running time 2.45 min. was edited out
Polk Salad Annie-was edited by 20 secs
Blue Suede Shoes-running time 1.05 min was edited out
Suspicious Minds-was edited by 58 secs
Introductions-running time 1.28 mins. was edited out (same comments as 2001 theme)
Closing Vamp:was 1.05 mins. was edited (same as above)

The introductions was inserted after the 'Impossible Dream' on the LP but
was actually done after 'Suspicious Minds'.

[YDKM]

EXCELLENT POST Anthony! These points have been mentioned MANY times over the years, but time goes by and errors don't get fixed-I sure as hell hope Tunzi's Oct Book will have this section correct or i'll give up writing to him!!

[Pete Dube]

taken from an audience recording of the 06/10 evening show - the following edits are revealed: (yes I know that there are many that don't believe, but hey you can lead a horse to water......)

here's the details of what has been edited from the June 10th.1972 evening
show at MSG

2001 THEME- running time 1.06 was edited - (the total time is written
here, compare this to what is on the LP)
Until It's Time For You To Go-running time 2.45 min. was edited out
Polk Salad Annie-was edited by 20 secs
Blue Suede Shoes-running time 1.05 min was edited out
Suspicious Minds-was edited by 58 secs
Introductions-running time 1.28 mins. was edited out (same comments as 2001 theme)
Closing Vamp:was 1.05 mins. was edited (same as above)

The introductions was inserted after the 'Impossible Dream' on the LP but
was actually done after 'Suspicious Minds'.

Anthony -
Please don't take this the wrong way, but could you provide song samples on this site, or perhaps send the FECC team a copy of the tape? This debate needs to be put to rest once and for all. If we have definitive proof that these songs were in fact performed at the June 10 evening show, then we can request that Ernst re-release the show complete and unedited. Lord knows it could use a sound upgrade!

[Greg]

<taken from an audience recording of the 06/10 evening show - the following edits are revealed: (yes I know that there are many that don't believe, but hey you can lead a horse to water......)

It is amazing how many times people post all this information about the audience tape, yet no one seems to have it in their collection, no one will post samples, no newspaper articles from 1972 corroborate the story, no translations of missing dialog have showed up. ForeverElvis, do you have this tape, have you heard it, or are you just regurgitating the same allegations that have been repeated over and over again in the past? I would love for this to be true, but no one has ever proved this. I can't believe that if this audience recording existed, that no one would have it. Will all the owners of the alleged audience tape please stand up and be recognized........

Greg

[Elvis#1]

I dont know where people are getting these stories that Elvis performed Blue Suede Shoes and Until Its Time For You To Go from but they are totally wrong. The evening show on June 10th was complete save for some editing between songs. I have about three books on the Madison Square Garden concerts and everyone of them gives the song line up for each show and what songs were sang on that given night and the June 10th evening show is the same as what RCA released. It was not at all uncommon for Elvis to change the song selection in his shows such as the case with the Aloha From Hawaii concert. The songs he sang in the Alternate Aloha were supposed to be the same as the Aloha show but he added three more songs. For some reason Elvis dropped Blue Suede Shoes and Until Its Time For You To Go from the MSG Evening show on June 10th and replaced them with the Impossible Dream. Until someone proves otherwise the released version IS the complete show and I doubt if anyone can prove that the June 10th Evening Show is any different then what is being said. And as someone said can someone come up with this audience recording of the Evening Show to prove me wrong? If they had it lets see it if they dont stop starting rumors.

[Susan]

Hi!

The list foreverElvis posted I also have seen many times posted as proof.
I was able to ask Phil Gelormine who attended all four concerts and he told me that Elvis DID NOT sing Until It's Time For You To Go and Blue Suede Shoes on the sat. evening show.
There are also some press articles concerning the show.
Roy Hollingworth wrote:
"And so the show stumbled to a non-existent climax, and Elvis bowed, and ran off, picking up the bodyguards again. It had indeed been an anti-climax. There had been little magic. It was all too showbizzy. He didn´t even do Blue Suede Shoes".

In Variety was written:
During his 52-minute set, the 37-year old ex-Memphis truckdriver performed about 20 numbers with supreme confidence in routines which were better constructed and choreographed than the terping at most Broadway musicals".

We know that the play time of as recorded is about 53min.

Ira Mayer wrote:
In 50 minutes (exactly) he did 19 or 20 songs, most of which lasted under two minutes".

On the album are 19 songs without(Opening, Closing Vamp and Intros). If you count Teddy Bear / Don't Be Cruel as two songs you `ve got 20.

Also the "fact" that Elvis sang Until and Blues.. on all concerts is not true.
He sang the songs also not in Chicago June 17th and not in Tulsa on June20th.
Why is there no AR from June10th 8:30pm?
If you ask me, some people recorded it and when the album was released they deleted it. Why an AR when you can have a prof. recording?
And if there would have been something wrong with the track list. They would have kept there tapes.
Just my thoughts.
BTW the press articles mentioned abouve can be seen on my website.
Also, I `d like to thanx Taniolo who did a lot a research.

[Pete Dube]

Hi!

The list foreverElvis posted I also have seen many times posted as proof.
I was able to ask Phil Gelormine who attended all four concerts and he told me that Elvis DID NOT sing Until It's Time For You To Go and Blue Suede Shoes on the sat. evening show.
There are also some press articles concerning the show.
Roy Hollingworth wrote:
"And so the show stumbled to a non-existent climax, and Elvis bowed, and ran off, picking up the bodyguards again. It had indeed been an anti-climax. There had been little magic. It was all too showbizzy. He didn´t even do Blue Suede Shoes".

In Variety was written:
During his 52-minute set, the 37-year old ex-Memphis truckdriver performed about 20 numbers with supreme confidence in routines which were better constructed and choreographed than the terping at most Broadway musicals".

We know that the play time of as recorded is about 53min.

Ira Mayer wrote:
In 50 minutes (exactly) he did 19 or 20 songs, most of which lasted under two minutes".

On the album are 19 songs without(Opening, Closing Vamp and Intros). If you count Teddy Bear / Don't Be Cruel as two songs you `ve got 20.

Also the "fact" that Elvis sang Until and Blues.. on all concerts is not true.
He sang the songs also not in Chicago June 17th and not in Tulsa on June20th.
Why is there no AR from June10th 8:30pm?
If you ask me, some people recorded it and when the album was released they deleted it. Why an AR when you can have a prof. recording?
And if there would have been something wrong with the track list. They would have kept there tapes.
Just my thoughts.
BTW the press articles mentioned abouve can be seen on my website.
Also, I `d like to thanx Taniolo who did a lot a research.

Susan -
Thank you, I've been meaning to contact Phil Gelormine regarding this matter, but I've never quite got around to it. As far as I'm concerned I'll go with what Phil told you - Elvis did NOT do those songs! To those who think they know differently I put forward the Missouri challenge: "show me!"

[Taniolo]

Also, I `d like to thanx Taniolo who did a lot a research.

Good point!

[YDKM]

It's good that this subject has been raised again because(hopefully) someone may publish where all the 'edits' were done on the released Album and EXACTLY what songs were sung! Thanks to Taniolo too!

[elvis_king]

how can people remember a tracklist of a concert they was at 31 years ago ???
maybe you remember it if you done an recording or the show been released on an album officially or bootleg

[Kristian Hjelmaas]

Most likely there were no additional songs done on stage that evening, other than those released on the official release.

All things are possible, however, but until someone actually delivers PROOF that such performances exist (meaning tapes or samples, NOT just a list!) I choose to believe that we've already got it all...

Br
Kristian

[TONY]

The only reason Elvis added 3 songs for the "Aloha" special, was because the show was too short for the alloted TV broadcast time. I can't see why Elvis would only do a 50 minute show in the evening at MSG and a 60 minute performance in the afternoon! Normally in Vegas, the more effort and longer running shows were at midnight, not the dinner shows. I can believe that at the time of release of the MSG show LP, edits would have been made due to the time contrictions / sound quality of an LP. It sems odd that one of the reviewers stated "He didn't even sing "blue suede shoes"" when this wasn't even an Elvis song officially and wasn't really a 'regular' song in his show. In that case, why didn't the reviewer say "He didn't even sing "It's now or never" or "Good luck charm" or others, as they were bigger hits and actually ELVIS SONGS!!??
Even George Harrison said of his visit to the MSG performance that he just wanted Elvis to do more rock n'' roll, instead, he sang "My way"!!!
Was THIS done at MSG????!!!!!!!!
TONY DOBB

[Susan]

how can people remember a tracklist of a concert they was at 31 years ago ???
maybe you remember it if you done an recording or the show been released on an album officially or bootleg

They could have written the tracklistings right after the concerts.

It sems odd that one of the reviewers stated "He didn't even sing "blue suede shoes"" when this wasn't even an Elvis song officially and wasn't really a 'regular' song in his show. In that case, why didn't the reviewer say "He didn't even sing "It's now or never" or "Good luck charm" or others, as they were bigger hits and actually ELVIS SONGS!!??

He sang Blues.. at the opening show may the writer thought Elvis would also do this song that afternoon?
There can be many reasons why he mentioned that song.

[see-see-rider]

Looking at the set lists for both MSG concerts that were released, along with the set lists for Elvis' "On tour" shows from April '72 (2 months earlier), would I be correct in assuming that the track running order for the original "Live at Madison Square Garden" LP release has been tampered with??! I guess there are edits too, as the afternnon show has a longer running time than the evening show. I am sure that he must have sung "Until it's time for you to go" during that show as he did it at nearly every concert around that time. Can ANYBODY clear this age old mystery up??

Personally I don't see the "misery" behind an artist like Elvis changing the songlist from day to day. I wouldn't rely on the runnig time either. As far as I remember it's recently been mentioned here that the original MSG has been sped up for release. So, maybe that is where you're missing minutes are left?

[drjohncarpenter]

The only reason Elvis added 3 songs for the "Aloha" special, was because the show was too short for the alloted TV broadcast time. I can't see why Elvis would only do a 50 minute show in the evening at MSG and a 60 minute performance in the afternoon! Normally in Vegas, the more effort and longer running shows were at midnight, not the dinner shows. I can believe that at the time of release of the MSG show LP, edits would have been made due to the time contrictions / sound quality of an LP. It sems odd that one of the reviewers stated "He didn't even sing "blue suede shoes"" when this wasn't even an Elvis song officially and wasn't really a 'regular' song in his show. In that case, why didn't the reviewer say "He didn't even sing "It's now or never" or "Good luck charm" or others, as they were bigger hits and actually ELVIS SONGS!!??
Even George Harrison said of his visit to the MSG performance that he just wanted Elvis to do more rock n'' roll, instead, he sang "My way"!!!
Was THIS done at MSG????!!!!!!!!
TONY DOBB

What I can't believe, in spite of the evidence above, is how you still cannot fathom that there are NO "lost" songs from this concert LP. After thirty years and three extensive "session" books, nothing verifiable has been said or printed to contradict this fact.

In 1972, you could have up to 30 minutes a side on LP without too much trouble. One of the reasons RCA/Joan Deary issued the disc without banding was because of the length of each side and the desire to get the record out ASAP.

As for Harrison's quote, you misread it. He saw the MSG show, wished it had contained more rock in the programme, and used "My Way" -- which he probably remembered from a viewing of "This Is Elvis" -- as a broad example of how Presley's outlook had gone totally "Vegas."

As far as I remember it's recently been mentioned here that the original MSG has been sped up for release. So, maybe that is where you're missing minutes are left?

Your memory fails you. If you revisit that post, you'll learn that the 1972 MSG LP runs at the correct speed, period.

Read and learn!

[BobbyTCB]

You do have to wonder where James Burton would have gotten that idea.

[drjohncarpenter]

You do have to wonder where James Burton would have gotten that idea.

No, you do not. Simply put, James is not the "sharpest" knife in the drawer.

[BobbyTCB]

Maybe so, maybe not. But being the renowned guitar player that he is, having played at the show, and possessing undoubtedly a better ear for music than most people who would debate this issue, his opinion is worth hearing.

That said, he could be wrong.

[drjohncarpenter]

Maybe so, maybe not. But being the renowned guitar player that he is, having played at the show, and possessing undoubtedly a better ear for music than most people who would debate this issue, his opinion is worth hearing.

That said, he could be wrong.

"Could be"? Obviously, you sit in that drawer as well.

Burton IS wrong, period.

Any musician -- even "renowned guitar player" Burton -- giving a simple listen to the original LP will notice EVERY song played in the usual key. If the album's pitch was increased, so would every tune go up at least half a step. They don't -- it isn't.

Read and learn -- try it sometime!

[BobbyTCB]

I am aware of what happens to the pitch of a recording when its speed is increased, and I am not disputing that the MSG album was not altered in this way. (I used the word "could" because All Things Are Possible, and basically because I haven't played it myself to confirm this.) I just don't think that your impression of JB's intelligence has anything to do with his credibility in this case.

If you were referring to his musical intelligence, you were wrong. If you were referring to something other than that, then your comment was irrelevant.

[KiwiAlan]

Could it be that Burton was either mis-quoted or taken out of context?

Perhaps he was referring to the fact that many of the well known songs were performed at a greater TEMPO than the originals?

The songs on both the vinyl and CD edition have not been sped up as listening will reveal.

[BobbyTCB]

Interesting hypothesis! That makes perfect sense and could very well be the case. I would be interested in reading what was actually said--anyone have a quote?