Anything about Elvis
More than 30 Million visitors can't be wrong

Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:32 am

I agree with uncle fester, good work EP Collector!!! You have confirmed my suspicions. We are lucky we still have the original designers around to let us know these things. We are also lucky you know how to get in contact with them!. Nicely done

Thu Jul 10, 2003 6:33 am

Job well-done. Sizings and a visual inspection would most likely be the final nail in the coffin.

Kudos.

These kind of claims will become much more common once the original sources of such items are no longer with us. It isn't the last time we will see this type of thing, by a long shot.

N8
... just a fan ....

Thu Jul 10, 2003 9:13 pm

Whether it was deliberate, I don't know. But their claim that the red part of the red & black Cisco suit in the photo used on the He Touched Me cover was not really red, but rather a reflection sort of gives an impression.

Thu Jul 10, 2003 9:34 pm

Good Job.............EP Collector............question did you see the picture of Osmond wearing the suit and if so can you post this?

By the way the belt that is on display with the Black Suit makes sense too..meaning Elvis by this time had gone beyond the simple style belt in most cases...........

PEP 8)

Fri Jul 11, 2003 1:35 am

BobbyTCB wrote:Whether it was deliberate, I don't know. But their claim that the red part of the red & black Cisco suit in the photo used on the He Touched Me cover was not really red, but rather a reflection sort of gives an impression.


I tend to agree with you BobbyTCB. Such a statement is an attempt to convince oneself & others as to the legitimacy of an item. In this case, a massive leap of the imagination. Photographs of Elvis with an item (plus solid sources, provenance, etc.) are the ultimate testament to authenticity and can raise the inherent "value" of a piece exponentially.

The same thing is done with other pieces on the same website. Case in point, the ring with the "Trouble With Girls" Movie Pics. Not the same ring - and this is not "opinion", but F-A-C-T. To be honest, I don't believe that it is the same ring in any of the photos presented along with it. Again, wishful thinking.

There are other examples on the same site as well, like the stone from the "Aloha" jumpsuit, the "EP" guitar pick etc., but I think you get the picture (so to speak).

The same kind of thing is also done on other websites (a very common practice) - for example: socks and various boots (in these cases it is impossible to know if they are the same ones as in the photographs accompanying the items; hence, they most likely are not). The impressions are misleading to say the least. Most seasoned collectors know this, but novice collectors / new fans don't. When such information is presented along with photos that do not clearly state that the items seen in the photos are only similar, the intent is obvious. Rarely, in my experience, will a seller volunteer such "reality-facts" at the time of purchase. Educating yourself, knowing what you collect, or learning the hard way from experience .......... are the only ways to safeguard against such subtle deception.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PEP - quite an excellent observation regarding the belts. :D


N8
... just a fan ....

Mon Jul 14, 2003 6:02 am

I have recently been paying close attention to the concerns out there on this suit. After having personally seen this and compared this to the other suits and seen the paperwork into the research of this Cisco suit I believe this to be truly genuine.



After having contacted the owner of this suit who only just got back from an overseas business trip he has forwarded to me, below, a response to pass onto this message board the following:



Thank you for all the interest and concerns in regard to this item I purchased, it is greatly appreciated. Even though I disagree with some, I respect their opinions.



This purchase was made with research and input from many fans throughout the world and for their efforts I thank and applaud them. I will stand behind the validity of this item based on all the documentation that I have received directly and from various other sources. My intention was to share a portion of my memorabilia with the fans, but it seems to have caused just the opposite effect.



I will look into this matter with all my capabilities and resources to prove the authenticity of this piece.



My primary intention was to share a piece of Elvis memorabilia that the fans would love to see, too much is hidden by collectors never to be seen or heard. I was more than happy to display this piece on Joseph's website. I have no intention to sell this piece now or in the future, the price was just a number I picked. I should have just said this item is NOT FOR SALE.


The purchase of this piece took years to complete and was thoroughly researched not only by me, but other people in the Elvis world. I may have even contacted you for input and advice. In regard to the 4 Cisco Kids suits this is the information that was given to me; as well as the information that the colour of the leather suit on the "He Touched Me" LP was the green suit and not red. The photographed red was due to the light shown on Elvis and/or the high speed film that was used that tended to create a red cast. This can clearly be seen on the rare ‘He Touched Me’ US Single on Joseph’s website if you click on page 13 of the RCA singles 45rpm section.



In all my research I have had to add new information and at times remove information that was incorrectly reported to me. I will be in Memphis this coming August and will make a trip to the Gibson Guitar Museum. If there is a Red Cisco kid jumpsuit on display I will add this to my article.



As far as the invoices go many of them are very sketchy. They would say along the lines of ‘white suit with black’ or whatever. None describe the suit in any detail. So it is very difficult to match them up, which I was quite aware of in my research and was told this by some of the top experts. Keep in mind it was us fans who gave the suits with their colourful names such as ‘Cisco’ etc.

You must keep in mind that each of Elvis' jumpsuits and many of his personal clothing were hand made. No two suits would be exactly the same. Maybe they wanted to add a little or not include something, who knows the person who actually made the suit. From my research some of them were farmed out to various costume makers in the Los Angeles area. The suit is made of a gabardine material and was compared to other Elvis jumpsuits for verification. As regards to this suit the material used and the stitching type used are identical to the other Cisco’s currently on display Please refer to the description in the "Elvis Official Auction Catalogue" from 1999.



The leather accents have cracks and are dull. The nail heads are also dull with no shine. Please keep in mind that the photos of the green Cisco jumpsuit have missing studs. The photo is one I found in a book and was used for display purposes only.

As to the waist size it seems to be a 31-32. In fact the few people who have seen it marvel how small Elvis was, I know I can't fit in it. As to the Colonel acquiring this piece who do you think owned the gold lame suit and sold it to EPE in the early 1990s. The Colonel sold Elvis is scarf's after he saw the number he was throwing out to the audience. I wouldn't put anything past this colourful character. The suit was presented not on a wire hanger but a wooden IC Costume hanger.

Look at the facts:

IC Costume Label with IC in gold thread.
Letter from the original owner.
Letter from Colonel Tom Parker on International Hotel stationery w/envelope.
ID from the gentleman with International logo.
Photo of him holding the jumpsuit.
Copy of pay stubs.
Business card.
IC Costume hanger.

As regards to Donny Osmond, the research so far shows this cannot be the case. For starters Donny was born in 1957, that would make him 14 years of age when this suit was made. This suit was clearly made for someone of at least 6ft.

I have purchased millions of $ of Elvis related material and have sold all over the world. I am right now in the middle of another purchase and am planning to have it on display on Joseph's great website, he has great vision and what he is planning will be a great service to all of us.

I trust this answers some if not all your questions. I am always asked when interviewed or people who have seen my collection how do you know if it is real. My answer is I look them in the eye, shake their hand and my decision is made. In this case the eyes and handshake told me what I already needed to know. All the rest was added dressing. Thank you for your enquires and continous support of Elvis Presley

Mon Jul 14, 2003 7:50 am

traffickingelvis wrote:I believe this to be truly genuine.


Fair enough. It is indeed a fascinating search for the "truth" and all opinions do deserve respect.

traffickingelvis wrote:I will look into this matter with all my capabilities and resources to prove the authenticity of this piece.


Please keep this MB updated as well.

traffickingelvis wrote:My primary intention was to share a piece of Elvis memorabilia that the fans would love to see, too much is hidden by collectors never to be seen or heard. I was more than happy to display this piece on Joseph's website. I have no intention to sell this piece now or in the future, the price was just a number I picked. I should have just said this item is NOT FOR SALE.


There are indeed some real gems in the hands of private collectors that are kept just that - private.

I respect what you are saying about "no intention" of selling the item, but I think you might agree that the following post (and website information) does give a different impression:

"Elvis Personal Owned Cisco Jumpsuit. Available for the first...

john burrows

Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 6
Location: UK
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 8:05 pm Post subject: Elvis Personal Owned Cisco Jumpsuit. Available for the first

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Go to this site. http://www.traffickingelvis.com. Elvis's Original Cisco jumpsuit 1 of only 15 outside the hands of Graceland. $250,0000 "

traffickingelvis wrote:In regard to the 4 Cisco Kids suits this is the information that was given to me; as well as the information that the colour of the leather suit on the "He Touched Me" LP was the green suit and not red. The photographed red was due to the light shown on Elvis and/or the high speed film that was used that tended to create a red cast. This can clearly be seen on the rare ‘He Touched Me’ US Single on Joseph’s website if you click on page 13 of the RCA singles 45rpm section.


I still remain, unconvinced as to this matter.

traffickingelvis wrote:In all my research I have had to add new information and at times remove information that was incorrectly reported to me. I will be in Memphis this coming August and will make a trip to the Gibson Guitar Museum. If there is a Red Cisco kid jumpsuit on display I will add this to my article.


Agreed. Understanding of pieces evolves with time.

There is (or was) indeed a Red Cisco at the "Rock-N-Soul" Museum in Memphis.

traffickingelvis wrote:As far as the invoices go many of them are very sketchy. They would say along the lines of ‘white suit with black’ or whatever. None describe the suit in any detail. So it is very difficult to match them up, which I was quite aware of in my research and was told this by some of the top experts. Keep in mind it was us fans who gave the suits with their colourful names such as ‘Cisco’ etc.


"Sketchy" invoices do not necessarily point to the legitimacy of the item. This sort of thinking is fallacious and is called "Circular Reasoning." Hopefully, EPCOLL. can elaborate on this - as he is also an "expert" in the field of jumpsuits. EPCOLL.'s exact words also stated:

"According to the designers of EP stage wear there is is no receipt, nor any invoice orders for a Balck On Black One Piece Cisko Kid suit. Niether desinger, nor Butch Polsted (owner of all the original patterns, and copyright designs for EP stage wear), have seen anything to support this suit as being made for Elvis."

Invoice discrepancies are also at the heart of other "questionable" items that have been auctioned off in the past. I'm not sure as to how much "faith" to place into such matters pointing to the "authenticity" of "questionable" items - as a result, I place very little. When it comes to such high-end (money-wise) items (jumpsuits, guitars, etc.), I feel that the burden of proof of authenticity lies on the seller's side (but, as you've stated, you are not really selling the item ........................)

traffickingelvis wrote:Look at the facts:

IC Costume Label with IC in gold thread.
Letter from the original owner.
Letter from Colonel Tom Parker on International Hotel stationery w/envelope.
ID from the gentleman with International logo.
Photo of him holding the jumpsuit.
Copy of pay stubs.
Business card.
IC Costume hanger.


Pretty strong evidence when taken all together. Belew's input is crucial to make the evidence overwhelming. If "The Col. letter" and photos of the jumpsuit (taken at the time acquired, in the original owner's hands) are real ............. I would agree as to a stronger case for legitimacy. Again, Belew's word would make an overwhelming case. If several years have been placed in researcing this item prior to purchase, ....... then where is the word of Belew in all of this?

traffickingelvis wrote:I have purchased millions of $ of Elvis related material and have sold all over the world. I am right now in the middle of another purchase and am planning to have it on display on Joseph's great website, he has great vision and what he is planning will be a great service to all of us. "


Spending huge sums of money does not an "expert" make. JMO. Although I respect what you are saying, your words in the above paragraph are all "appeals" to "authority, flattery, and belief." This is not a statement as to your veracity, merely rational reasoning.

While I think that the website in discussion is indeed interesting, there is also some misrepresentation going on with a number of other items.

traffickingelvis wrote:I am always asked when interviewed or people who have seen my collection how do you know if it is real. My answer is I look them in the eye, shake their hand and my decision is made. In this case the eyes and handshake told me what I already needed to know. All the rest was added dressing.


In other words, your "instincts" or "gut feeling" are used to vouch for an item. There is a word for this, it is called "an appeal to emotion."

A lot of fallacious reasoning at work here.


N8
... just a fan ....

Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:39 am

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... egory=2009


the EPCOLLECTOR at large!!

>>>TCB<<<

Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:51 am

EPCOLLECTOR wrote: ..... What amazes me is that a "seasoned" collector who has spent "millions" of dollars on EP memorbilia has never consulted Bill Belew or Gene Doucette for their verdict.


"Dollar amount" spent does not equate with "authority" and/or "expert" knowledge. Case in point has already been pointed out -

The most critical piece of evidence (or "fact", if you will) would be word from Belew. If money spent equates with "authority/expert knowledge", ......... then, why is there no word from Belew? This is step ONE in the follow-up on this type of piece.

EPCOLLECTOR wrote:Seems like far too many holes in this story, not to mention that the one piece black with red leather upper, is the one shown on the "He Touched Me" album, not the green as indicated in this post.


Lots of rhetoric and smoke = Caveat Emptor.

EPCOLLECTOR wrote:My friend a HANDSHAKE does not make a piece legit.....sorry.


The only thing such an assertion points to, IMO, is a healthy EGO; for such a premise is, simply - absurd.


N8
... just a fan ....

Fascinating.

Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:30 am

My "opinion", to date, based upon what has been posted above (traffickingelvis' reply) remains unchanged. In fact, based upon the above rhetoric, I'm leaning more heavily to the verdict of non-authentic.

Will be interesting to see how this one evolves.


N8
... just a fan ....

Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:26 pm

EPCOLLECTOR
not to mention that the one piece black with red leather upper, is the one shown on the "He Touched Me" album, not the green as indicated in this post.



I really don't want to get into whether the Cisco suit is genuine or not, I'll be way out of my depth, but the suit on the 'He Touched Me' cover could well be the green one.

Red lighting is a bloody nightmare for photographers at live shows, the colour bleeds into everything and in a lot of cases results in an unusable image (remember no flash is allowed for proffesional photographers).

If you check both the US 45 single and Album covers, the single is clearly the green suit, with minimal bleed on the shoulders mostly. The album however is clearly saturated in red, check out his face, hair, hands & scarf. If you're still not satisfied look at the studs on the suit - all red, even the mike has a pink tinge.

The best bet would be to get in touch with Ed Bonja (surely his pics) to confirm or deny the lighting problem on these particular shots.

Hope this hasn't gone too far off what this thread is/was originally about, i'll also be looking on to see how this pans out.

We can only dream of owning such an item-If genuine!!!

Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:23 pm

EP Collector is right, the studs in the two pictures are different, and has anyone considered this?:
The two photos were probably taken with the same camera but on different days. In The single pic, the suit reflected not only the red light, but some green as well. This is how it is obvious that the green suit is on the single. It is probably safe to assume (since Ed Bonja took these shots) that the photos were taken within a couple of weeks of each other (at most) under similar lighting conditions with the same type of film. If this is the case (which i suspect it would be) Why then would the green light not be reflected on the suit in this picture, as it was in the single shot?

Also didn't the text posted on the trafficking elvis site indicate that the suit on the cover was the BLACK cisco?? Methinks someone is trying to mislead...

Belew's words are strong evidence, stronger than:
1. Money
2.IC Costume Label with IC in gold thread. & hanger (Doesnt mean it's Elvis's)
3. Letter from Colonel Tom Parker on International Hotel stationery w/envelope (can be faked)
4. Pay stubs (can be faked)

If the owner TRULY has Photos of the original owner holding the suit, I would Love to see them. Of course no excuse could be offered for not posting them since:
1. Posting wouldn't hurt the VALUE of the photos since Elvis is not in them.
2. If we don't know the name of the man in the photos no one can bother him.
3. It will do no damage to the suit or owner to post them.

Of course, EVEN photos of the the "original owner" holding the suit would not be the last word, but it would help immensely.

But I have a feeling the owner isnt intent on discovering the TRUTH, only proving his suit is Elvis's since he says:


I will look into this matter with all my capabilities and resources to prove the authenticity of this piece.


I understand that if the suit were not real the owner would have lost a great investment, but IMO the truth is more important that money.

Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:29 pm

Hi EPCOLLECTOR & KingOfTheJungle

more your field with the suit details, i really wish i could help more.

Not too sure i can agree with your lighting theory though KOTG, i'm sure you've been to many shows in your life of many artists. My point is the lighting is forever changing, so i can't quite go along with your idea that the green light would've shown up on both pics - there probably wasn't a green light anyway.
The single seems to be backlit with a red light, which would mean the red light in the background is genuine & not an overlay for effect & it would seem a white spot light on the front. Evidence being in the shape of the highlights on his upper body parts - green area of suit his brow, cheekbones, nose, lip etc., etc. even the good ol' microphone is a nice bright silver.
The red light really does change everything & we all know Elvis' lighting was sometimes heavy on the red which is shown in parts of TTWII also the cover of 'Now' and single of UITF You To Go

Hope this helps in some small way - I'm off to Orlando 2morrow can't wait to see the Osmond suit - lol.
Nah i'm just kidding about the Osmonds but may well go to the Hard Rock while i'm there ...........

Keep digging out the truth guys

Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:30 pm

Hi EPCOLLECTOR & KingOfTheJungle

more your field with the suit details, i really wish i could help more.

Not too sure i can agree with your lighting theory though KOTG, i'm sure you've been to many shows in your life of many artists. My point is the lighting is forever changing, so i can't quite go along with your idea that the green light would've shown up on both pics - there probably wasn't a green light anyway.
The single seems to be backlit with a red light, which would mean the red light in the background is genuine & not an overlay for effect & it would seem a white spot light on the front. Evidence being in the shape of the highlights on his upper body parts - green area of suit his brow, cheekbones, nose, lip etc., etc. even the good ol' microphone is a nice bright silver.
The red light really does change everything & we all know Elvis' lighting was sometimes heavy on the red which is shown in parts of TTWII also the cover of 'Now' and single of UITF You To Go

Hope this helps in some small way - I'm off to Orlando 2morrow can't wait to see the Osmond suit - lol.
Nah i'm just kidding about the Osmonds but may well go to the Hard Rock while i'm there ...........

Keep digging out the truth guys

Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:08 am

KingOfTheJungle wrote:EP Collector is right, the studs in the two pictures are different, and has anyone considered this?
Also didn't the text posted on the trafficking elvis site indicate that the suit on the cover was the BLACK cisco?? Methinks someone is trying to mislead....


KOTJ - Agreed, on both points.

I respect EPCOLL.'s word on the studs and believe to be true.

The website under discussion is, without a doubt, implying that the Cisco jumpsuit on the album COULD be the Black on Black. IMO, it is not.

One additional thought:

Excerpt from the "traffickingelvis" website:

"SIDENOTE: In my research I ........ spoke to several people who have either conducted research or worked with ....... EPE ......... in the archival department and based upon receipts, showing that four jumpsuits were ordered in the pattern. One being black w/green leather (Elvis-A-Rama) ..... white w/black leather (Graceland) ......... black w/blue leather (Graceland) .......... black w/black leather (I own) ........." Source - Anonymous (at this time).

Either Graceland is again WRONG, ............... OR ............ this source missed the black w/red leather "Cisco" jumpsuit (Rock-N-Soul Museum) completely. Anyway you slice it, ............ hardly the epitome of "authority" or "expert knowledge."

KingOfTheJungle wrote:Belew's words are strong evidence, stronger than:

1. Money
2.IC Costume Label with IC in gold thread. & hanger (Doesnt mean it's Elvis's)
3. Letter from Colonel Tom Parker on International Hotel stationery w/envelope (can be faked)
4. Pay stubs (can be faked).


Exactly. Without Belew's word, ............. all of the above are merely (to borrow a phrase already used) "added dressing."

The only evidence that is missing - is the only evidence that matters = Belew's word.

KingOfTheJungle wrote:If the owner TRULY has Photos of the original owner holding the suit, I would Love to see them.
Of course, EVEN photos of the the "original owner" holding the suit would not be the last word, but it would help immensely.


The owner is, of course, under no obligation to share the photos, ........ especially since the item is conveniently No Longer For Sale.

I'm not saying this is the case here but, I've seen this kind of "cause and effect" before; the authenticity of an item is further (or too deeply) scrutinized and a piece suddenly is not available any longer (for various reasons: another seller is interested, changed my mind, etc.).

Since Belew is still around, I would give Belew's word precedence over even photos. Once these true sources are no longer able to offer their input, one can easily see how provenance issues quickly become much more complicated.

KingOfTheJungle wrote:But I have a feeling the owner isnt intent on discovering the TRUTH, only proving his suit is Elvis's since he says .... ....


Agreed.

The statement:

"I will look into this matter with all my capabilities and resources to prove the authenticity of this piece."

...... can be read two ways. Time will tell.

KingOfTheJungle wrote:I understand that if the suit were not real the owner would have lost a great investment, but IMO the truth is more important that money.


Also, consider the prospect of the chain of ownership growing - especially if it is bogus.

It is always about the T-R-U-T-H.


N8
... just a fan ....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Regarding Nolan's input - a perfect example of stagelighting changing colors of Elvis' jumpsuits is ................ The 1972 Owl Jumpsuit. Lighting influences are indeed possible, but I do not believe the Black on Black is on the cover of the "He Touched Me" album. IF it were true, there would also be other photos of the Black on Black.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One thing that doesn't sit well with me is the high praise afforded to the website under discussion. There is other subtle misrepresentation going on at that site. Perhaps some consider this an unrelated matter. I, for one, do not.