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Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:48 am

luckyjackson1 wrote:Why didn't Elvis record at least ONE FULL album of Dylan's compositions? *sigh*


I think the answer may turn out to be more complex than we now realize.

There's a tidbit connected to the release of the new "Self-Portrait" set, involving something called "Working On A Guru," that I found most illuminating. (I don't have the set yet; I read it in the Rolling Stone. I'll just leave it be, till I read more when I get the set.)

rjm

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Last edited by rjm on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:54 am

luckyjackson1 wrote:Why didn't Elvis record at least ONE FULL album of Dylan's compositions? *sigh*


Because he didn't want to.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:52 pm

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Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:42 pm

Claus wrote:
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That was cool. Thanks, Claus..... :D

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:04 pm

brian wrote:That is true Leiber & Stoller wrote blues, R&B, rock n' roll, ballads, gospel etc.

I know it's popular on this board to think the Beatles were the greatest at everything they did but you could make an argument that Leiber & Stoller were more diverse songwriters than them.

You could make a good argument that Leiber & Stoller at their peak were better songwriters than Lennon & McCartney were at theirs.


Leiber & Stoller are the greatest rock and roll song writers of all time, drawing their influence of course from the blues and r&b. They are unmatched in that field. No one ever again will write great rock & roll songs like Jailhouse Rock, Searchin, Hound Dog, etc. Yes they wrote in other styles but none were as successful as their great 50''s work with the exception of Peggy Lee's 1969 hit Is That All There Is. They stand alone at the the rock & roll songwriter throne. Lennon & McCartney over all , were the greatest songwriters in pop music history as they nutured their style and progressed with each LP. As for Dylan, he was probably the greatest lyricist ever. All IMO of course.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:19 pm

With an honorable mention of Kris Kristofferson :wink:

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:50 pm

brian wrote:
mysterytrainrideson wrote:
PStoller wrote:
r&b wrote:
Mister Moon wrote:
mysterytrainrideson wrote:There is no other songwriters in rock that could ever match Lennon/McCartney


Mmm...

We will ask Chuck Berry and Mike Stoller about that... :wink:


Chuck Berry & Mike Stoller were great songwriters, some of the best of the 50's and early 60's of true rock & roll. But they were limited to that certain style. it is quite amazing how John & Paul kept evolving, more so than any pop writers in history. They continued to set trends from 1963 until the end of the group and the Abbey Road LP. Not every song was a winner but the amount of quality work in those short 7 years is truly amazing and unmatched.


I haven't sufficient distance from the subject to pass judgment on the comparative merits of Lennon/McCartney vs. Leiber/Stoller vs. Chuck Berry. However, to state that Leiber & Stoller were "limited to that certain style" shows ignorance of the full range of their work, which is arguably as stylistically varied as the Lennon & McCartney catalog. Chuck Berry may have worked a narrower territory, but depth is at least as important as breadth in assessing a writer's work. Within his stylistic confines (which, by the way, are a bit broader than those who only know his biggest hits might suppose), he achieved a level of brilliance equalled by few and surpassed by none.

I'm gonna try and explain this the best way i can. As much as i love leiber/Stoller and berry for there amazing songwriting talents, they wrote some amazing songs. In Leiber/Stollers case, Blues, R&B and R'n'R. But Lennon/McCartney were a different kettle of fish all together. I don't think writers like Leiber/Stoller or Berry could come up with "new musical" ideas like Sgt Pepper, White Album and side2 of Abbey Road. They just didn't have that imagination, they just wrote straight forward classic songs. Lennon/McCartney were in a world of there own when it came to expanding their songwriting. There won't be another two like them, they are unmatched.


In your own opinion!

It is fact, Brian.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:59 pm

r&b wrote:
brian wrote:That is true Leiber & Stoller wrote blues, R&B, rock n' roll, ballads, gospel etc.

I know it's popular on this board to think the Beatles were the greatest at everything they did but you could make an argument that Leiber & Stoller were more diverse songwriters than them.

You could make a good argument that Leiber & Stoller at their peak were better songwriters than Lennon & McCartney were at theirs.


Leiber & Stoller are the greatest rock and roll song writers of all time, drawing their influence of course from the blues and r&b. They are unmatched in that field. No one ever again will write great rock & roll songs like Jailhouse Rock, Searchin, Hound Dog, etc. Yes they wrote in other styles but none were as successful as their great 50''s work with the exception of Peggy Lee's 1969 hit Is That All There Is. They stand alone at the the rock & roll songwriter throne. Lennon & McCartney over all , were the greatest songwriters in pop music history as they nutured their style and progressed with each LP. As for Dylan, he was probably the greatest lyricist ever. All IMO of course.

Thats a spot-on assessment, r&b.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:01 pm

brian wrote:
luckyjackson1 wrote:Why didn't Elvis record at least ONE FULL album of Dylan's compositions? *sigh*


Because he didn't want to.

Thats a very informative answer.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:09 pm

brian wrote:
luckyjackson1 wrote:Just came up with a craze:

This morning on my way to work I listened to the Beatles' "Abbey Road" medley and later during my lunch break I had the "Road Medley" from the '68 Comeback Special playing on my mp3 stick and all of a sudden this idea came to my mind - were the Beatles inspired by this medley featured on the LPM-4088 to also put together a medley of the unfinished songs they had? :shock:

BTW, I just realized the similarity... "Abbey Road" and "Road Medley"... :lol: smt174

God, it's hot in Germany today... :wink:


It is true the Road Medley did inspire Abbey Road and everything on it.

Could you please give us some more information on this, please. Like sources and evidence of it...

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:19 pm

r&b wrote:
Mister Moon wrote:
mysterytrainrideson wrote:There is no other songwriters in rock that could ever match Lennon/McCartney


Mmm...

We will ask Chuck Berry and Mike Stoller about that... :wink:


Chuck Berry & Mike Stoller were great songwriters, some of the best of the 50's and early 60's of true rock & roll. But they were limited to that certain style. it is quite amazing how John & Paul kept evolving, more so than any pop writers in history. They continued to set trends from 1963 until the end of the group and the Abbey Road LP. Not every song was a winner but the amount of quality work in those short 7 years is truly amazing and unmatched.


"Limited"... that's a helluva way to describe Mike Stoller. He along with Jerry Leiber were two of the early pioneers of popular music's evolution from it's R&B roots. They were also production pioneers and that Phil Spector learnt much of his studio craft from them is proof enough that "limited" is a very poor choice of words. They were not only more versatile than Lennon & McCartney but they were more accomplished at making music fun...!!

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:21 pm

Most songwriting duo's work like-one writes the music and the other writes the words-i think this was the case with Leiber/Stoller. But with Lennon/McCartney they were both capable of words and music, so therefore you had two individauls writing songs and coming up with their own ideas and then feeding further ideas and interacting with one another. It was a perfect team, two geniuses working together.

I'm not knocking, Leiber/Stoller as songwriters in any shape or form, just stating the obvious.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:05 pm

The big problem was that Leiber/Stoller great compositions for Elvis in the 50's were almost replaced by Tepper/Benett movie songs in Elvis 60's career. But that was Colonel's policy and Elvis unfortunately agreed.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:32 pm

r&b wrote:
brian wrote:That is true Leiber & Stoller wrote blues, R&B, rock n' roll, ballads, gospel etc.

I know it's popular on this board to think the Beatles were the greatest at everything they did but you could make an argument that Leiber & Stoller were more diverse songwriters than them.

You could make a good argument that Leiber & Stoller at their peak were better songwriters than Lennon & McCartney were at theirs.


Leiber & Stoller are the greatest rock and roll song writers of all time, drawing their influence of course from the blues and r&b. They are unmatched in that field. No one ever again will write great rock & roll songs like Jailhouse Rock, Searchin, Hound Dog, etc. Yes they wrote in other styles but none were as successful as their great 50''s work with the exception of Peggy Lee's 1969 hit Is That All There Is. They stand alone at the the rock & roll songwriter throne. Lennon & McCartney over all , were the greatest songwriters in pop music history as they nutured their style and progressed with each LP. As for Dylan, he was probably the greatest lyricist ever. All IMO of course.


Every songwriter has their peak for Leiber & Stoller I would say it was a ten year period from the early 1950s to the early 1960s.

For Lennon & McCartney it was 1963 to 1969.

I was talking about Leiber & Stoller actually writing hit R&b and hit blues songs not their rock n' roll songs being influenced by them.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:24 pm

brian wrote:
r&b wrote:
brian wrote:That is true Leiber & Stoller wrote blues, R&B, rock n' roll, ballads, gospel etc.

I know it's popular on this board to think the Beatles were the greatest at everything they did but you could make an argument that Leiber & Stoller were more diverse songwriters than them.

You could make a good argument that Leiber & Stoller at their peak were better songwriters than Lennon & McCartney were at theirs.


Leiber & Stoller are the greatest rock and roll song writers of all time, drawing their influence of course from the blues and r&b. They are unmatched in that field. No one ever again will write great rock & roll songs like Jailhouse Rock, Searchin, Hound Dog, etc. Yes they wrote in other styles but none were as successful as their great 50''s work with the exception of Peggy Lee's 1969 hit Is That All There Is. They stand alone at the the rock & roll songwriter throne. Lennon & McCartney over all , were the greatest songwriters in pop music history as they nutured their style and progressed with each LP. As for Dylan, he was probably the greatest lyricist ever. All IMO of course.


Every songwriter has their peak for Leiber & Stoller I would say it was a ten year period from the early 1950s to the early 1960s.

For Lennon & McCartney it was 1963 to 1969.

I was talking about Leiber & Stoller actually writing hit R&b and hit blues songs not their rock n' roll songs being influenced by them.

Let's not forget what John & Paul acheived as solo artists too.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:42 pm

Lesser material than when they were in the Beatles.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:08 pm

jungleroombear wrote:
r&b wrote:
Mister Moon wrote:
mysterytrainrideson wrote:There is no other songwriters in rock that could ever match Lennon/McCartney


They were not only more versatile than Lennon & McCartney but they were more accomplished at making music fun...!!


That's pretty funny because when The Beatles hit big here in the USA all you heard from many critics at the time was how rock and roll music is fun again and this is just what it needed to knock it out of its doldrums. Obviously you were sulking. Leiber & Stoller as good as they were , were no longer writing the songs that teens were buying. Time marches on & music changes. If they were so versatile, ......?

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:40 pm

Leiber and Stoller are legends and and played a very important role in the 50's and early 60's. That said, I think Elvis to a larger degree made Leiber and Stoller than the other way around. And I wouldn't compare them to Lennon, McCartney or Dylan - they brought popular music to another level, in my book.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:46 pm

tarobe wrote:Maybe. I certainlty believe that Elvis' TV special inspired Paul McCartney to have the Beatles put on their very own TV special. It was to be their "comeback." They called it Get Back. It eventually evolved into a theatrical film, Let It Be. Unfortunately, by the time it was released the band was no more.


Um, sorry, but no.

It's doubtful any of the Beatles saw the 1968 TV Special, and incorporated it into their work at Twickenham Studios or Apple Corps. in January 1969, as it did not get a U.K. showing until 12-31-1969 on BBC2 as "The Fabulous Elvis," with a repeat on BBC1 on 2-04-1970.

The original idea by the Fab Four was to do some live shows in London with new material, perhaps at the Roundhouse. But there was never consent at any one time from all 4 members to do it. It then evolved into the notion of a TV concert, and a year later it finally came out as a filmed documentary.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:59 pm

rjm wrote:…It's not the Olympics, anyway. Gold medals all around!

As for my personal taste in writing, I'm a Dylan partisan. One cannot control one's own emotional responses to song. I think it's his deep and lasting folk roots that does it for me.

But great is great, and it's almost brutal to compare the truly great in such a fashion. Anyone can scrawl out a ditty, but only a very few can be extraordinary. Only a very few.

I think that's why Elvis never really tried; I think he felt that if he couldn't knock the world on it's butt with at least one, he just wasn't going to do it at all. And he knew the truly great, which can be intimidating. I would find it hard to write any kind of a song after spending quality time with the likes of L&S. Or L&Mc, or Berry, or Dylan.

One thing to remember, though, is that some of Elvis's most creative music-making happened while working with Leiber and Stoller. Brilliance feeds into brilliance, which is perhaps why the Beatles' collaborative concept worked so very well.


I definitely agree about it not being the Olympics. Comparing these writers (and Dylan was the most obvious omission in the conversation up to this point, though certainly not the only one) is, to me, like the endless comparisons between Elvis and other great performers—as if there were some objective standard for "best." The individuality required to achieve the highest level of artistic achievement renders all such comparisons moot. How fortunate for us that, as listeners, we can have them all.

It doesn't matter to me that Elvis didn't write, let alone why. Saying he was "just a singer" is like saying Einstein was "just a physicist," as if ol' Albert—if he really wanted to impress us—should also have been a world-class triathlete. Or, for that matter, like saying that L&S were "just songwriters." Music is typically a collaborative art form: why knock brilliant collaborators for choosing not to do everything themselves? Even Dylan went and got himself a band. (Hell, he went on got himself the Band.)

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:20 pm

egilj wrote:Leiber and Stoller are legends and and played a very important role in the 50's and early 60's. That said, I think Elvis to a larger degree made Leiber and Stoller than the other way around. And I wouldn't compare them to Lennon, McCartney or Dylan - they brought popular music to another level, in my book.


We're talking apples and oranges.

Leiber and Stoller did great work before, after and with Elvis Presley. They also guided the very successful career of the Coasters (a group the Beatles loved so much they covered songs like "Youngblood," "Three Cool Cats," and "Searchin'") and with many, many other acts. They were also incredibly witty craftsmen from the start, showing how a pop or R&B song could offer many levels of sophistication to a listening audience.

Their finest music helped to provide the foundation of rock 'n' roll that all others (Beatles, Dylan, Stones, et. al.) would follow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Leiber_and_Mike_Stoller#Definitive_songs

If they had only been responsible for working with Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil to remake "On Broadway" into the shimmering, timeless Drifters hit in 1963, their place in the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame would be secure.



630316_Atlantic 2182_Drifters.JPG



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Drifters, "On Broadway" (Atlantic 2182, March 16, 1963)
Billboard U.S. Pop #9 April 27, 1963, R&B #7 May 4, 1963.

On Broadway (song)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Broadway_(song)


What an incredible single. Everything about this recording is perfect, from Rudy Lewis' confident, hopeful lead vocal to the soulful backing and haunting arrangement by Gary Sherman.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:26 pm

PStoller wrote:
rjm wrote:…It's not the Olympics, anyway. Gold medals all around!

As for my personal taste in writing, I'm a Dylan partisan. One cannot control one's own emotional responses to song. I think it's his deep and lasting folk roots that does it for me.

But great is great, and it's almost brutal to compare the truly great in such a fashion. Anyone can scrawl out a ditty, but only a very few can be extraordinary. Only a very few.

I think that's why Elvis never really tried; I think he felt that if he couldn't knock the world on it's butt with at least one, he just wasn't going to do it at all. And he knew the truly great, which can be intimidating. I would find it hard to write any kind of a song after spending quality time with the likes of L&S. Or L&Mc, or Berry, or Dylan.

One thing to remember, though, is that some of Elvis's most creative music-making happened while working with Leiber and Stoller. Brilliance feeds into brilliance, which is perhaps why the Beatles' collaborative concept worked so very well.


I definitely agree about it not being the Olympics. Comparing these writers (and Dylan was the most obvious omission in the conversation up to this point, though certainly not the only one) is, to me, like the endless comparisons between Elvis and other great performers—as if there were some objective standard for "best." The individuality required to achieve the highest level of artistic achievement renders all such comparisons moot. How fortunate for us that, as listeners, we can have them all.

It doesn't matter to me that Elvis didn't write, let alone why. Saying he was "just a singer" is like saying Einstein was "just a physicist," as if ol' Albert—if he really wanted to impress us—should also have been a world-class triathlete. Or, for that matter, like saying that L&S were "just songwriters." Music is typically a collaborative art form: why knock brilliant collaborators for choosing not to do everything themselves? Even Dylan went and got himself a band. (Hell, he went on got himself the Band.)



I didn't get the idea that anyone is knocking anyone here, and yes, there were some brilliant writers left out of the conversation. After all, to name them all would be like trying to list all the great movies ever made. I just think , that after all is said and done, most music critics and most everyday music fans would agree that not only were Lennon/McCartney the most successful writers in pop music history, but also the most revered. I will not say IMO here, because I believe this is the opinion of most folks.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:40 pm

mysterytrainrideson wrote:I'm gonna try and explain this the best way i can. As much as i love leiber/Stoller and berry for there amazing songwriting talents, they wrote some amazing songs. In Leiber/Stollers case, Blues, R&B and R'n'R. But Lennon/McCartney were a different kettle of fish all together. I don't think writers like Leiber/Stoller or Berry could come up with "new musical" ideas like Sgt Pepper, White Album and side2 of Abbey Road. They just didn't have that imagination, they just wrote straight forward classic songs. Lennon/McCartney were in a world of there own when it came to expanding their songwriting. There won't be another two like them, they are unmatched.

I'm not sure how you define a "straightforward classic song." At their respective commercial and/or creative peaks, Leiber & Stoller and Chuck Berry were writing songs that were sufficiently "new" that they stood apart from—and changed—the way other songwriters wrote. You could say the same of Bob Dylan, Brian Wilson, Holland-Dozier-Holland, and other top-drawer writers—all of whom influenced Lennon & McCartney. Nobody thought of those catalogs as "straightforward classic songs" at the time.

L&S influenced the Beatles (incl. George Martin) as producers, as well. For example, the Beatles' "new musical ideas" were presaged by the "new musical ideas" L&S brought to the Drifters and Ben E. King; weaving diverse classical and ethnic influences into pop-rock-r&b years before Sgt. Pepper's. Of course, the Beatles took these concepts a step further. Arguably, L&S took it a step further again (or at least a step to the left) in their 1975 collaboration with Peggy Lee, Mirrors—a record that was decidedly not blues, r&b, r&r, or straightforward. It was also decidedly not a hit; but, still, perhaps you should give it a listen before determining that L&S "just didn't have that imagination."

None of this is meant to slight the singular greatness of the Beatles. Their mid-to-late albums in particular are personal favorites of mine, and a huge influence on my musical tastes and thinking. And, I ultimately must agree that:
r&b wrote:…most music critics and most everyday music fans would agree that not only were Lennon/McCartney the most successful writers in pop music history, but also the most revered.

But, they were neither the first nor the last artists to significantly alter and expand the vocabulary of popular music.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:56 pm

brian wrote:Lesser material than when they were in the Beatles.

So wrong. They wrote some fantastic music as solo artists and had great chart success. It's just they weren't The Beatles anymore, but they were still capable of great music on their own. Their hits may have been few and far between, thats because they weren't working together anymore and of course, every songwriter eventually dries up and runs out of ideas, you can't go on forever writing top quality songs, it all comes to an end sometime. But god, Lennon/McCartney did better than most as songwriters, writing hits from 1963 to 1980, Pauls last big hit was "No More Lonely Nights" in 81/2, i think. Thats almost 20yrs. Most songwriters dry up after a couple of years, they write maybe 4/5 memorable tunes then thats it. With a few notable exceptions like, leiber/stoller etc, Lennon/McCartney are at the top of the pile.

Re: Beatles' Abbey Road Medley inspired by Road Medley?

Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:13 am

PStoller wrote:
mysterytrainrideson wrote:I'm gonna try and explain this the best way i can. As much as i love leiber/Stoller and berry for there amazing songwriting talents, they wrote some amazing songs. In Leiber/Stollers case, Blues, R&B and R'n'R. But Lennon/McCartney were a different kettle of fish all together. I don't think writers like Leiber/Stoller or Berry could come up with "new musical" ideas like Sgt Pepper, White Album and side2 of Abbey Road. They just didn't have that imagination, they just wrote straight forward classic songs. Lennon/McCartney were in a world of there own when it came to expanding their songwriting. There won't be another two like them, they are unmatched.

I'm not sure how you define a "straightforward classic song." At their respective commercial and/or creative peaks, Leiber & Stoller and Chuck Berry were writing songs that were sufficiently "new" that they stood apart from—and changed—the way other songwriters wrote. You could say the same of Bob Dylan, Brian Wilson, Holland-Dozier-Holland, and other top-drawer writers—all of whom influenced Lennon & McCartney. Nobody thought of those catalogs as "straightforward classic songs" at the time.

L&S influenced the Beatles (incl. George Martin) as producers, as well. For example, the Beatles' "new musical ideas" were presaged by the "new musical ideas" L&S brought to the Drifters and Ben E. King; weaving diverse classical and ethnic influences into pop-rock-r&b years before Sgt. Pepper's. Of course, the Beatles took these concepts a step further. Arguably, L&S took it a step further again (or at least a step to the left) in their 1975 collaboration with Peggy Lee, Mirrors—a record that was decidedly not blues, r&b, r&r, or straightforward. It was also decidedly not a hit; but, still, perhaps you should give it a listen before determining that L&S "just didn't have that imagination."

None of this is meant to slight the singular greatness of the Beatles. Their mid-to-late albums in particular are personal favorites of mine, and a huge influence on my musical tastes and thinking. And, I ultimately must agree that:
r&b wrote:…most music critics and most everyday music fans would agree that not only were Lennon/McCartney the most successful writers in pop music history, but also the most revered.

But, they were neither the first nor the last artists to significantly alter and expand the vocabulary of popular music.


No, of course not. Music is not dead despite what some people on here may believe.